[00:00:00] Fiona Johnston
So let's make a pact right here on this podcast. Okay. You and me, but also every- Is there blood involved? No. Everybody else who's listening too. When women fail, they are absolutely crucified. So what we can do as women is actually support women who have failed. Look to other women and go, "Is there another woman that can help me take this risk in a way that feels safer for me?" That might be accessing capital from another woman, or it might be saying, "Hey, I'm doing something really scary for the next three months." Mm. "Can I call you every Sunday at 10:00 AM?"
Money Secrets Intro
Are you a small business owner who'd love to be making more money while making positive change in the world? You're in the right place, friend. Hi, I'm Fi Johnston, a chartered accountant and money coach obsessed with small business. In The Money Secrets podcast, I share strategies that you can use to make more money without working harder. You'll hear successful small business owners share what they've learned about money and business, and I'll help you to [00:01:00] think differently and shift your perspectives about money so you can grow your business and your impact. My mission is to get more money into the hands of good business owners like you.
Acknowledgement of Country
This podcast episode was recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, and I'd like to acknowledge them as the traditional owners and custodians of this land and water that I live, work, and play on. I'd like to pay respects to elders both past and present, and note that sovereignty has never been ceded. This always was, and always will be Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land.
Fi
All right, so we are on the Money Secrets podcast with a very special guest, Carmen Hawker. Welcome to the Money Secrets podcast.
Thank you so much. It's great to see you, and looking so colorful, but people can't see that. But- It's true. I try and- ... right now I'm, I'm looking at a pink chunky knit cardigan and a gorgeous top with, like, green, red, yellow, [00:02:00] pink, blue, money signs, prawns, money bags. It's- I know ... it's a vibe All of the vibes.
So let me introduce you to the listeners. So Carmen Hawker is an impact communicator, brand strategist, and wear-your-heart-on-your-earlobes kinda gal. Specializing in personality-driven content for purpose-led businesses, she is the founder of certified B Corp, Carmen Get It, your one-stop neon-lit shop for vibrant copy and campaigns.
With a background in gender equity, human rights, and social justice, Carmen is also the co-founder of not-for-profit, The Global Women's Project, and financial education platform, Ladies Talk Money. Did not know that. Mm-hmm. Mm. Longtime feminist and fierce advocate, she is committed to making business and the world a kinder and more colorful place.
Ha. What an amazing bio. It's almost as if I wrote it myself So how did we get here? How did you become this [00:03:00] woman who is the co-founder of a not-for-profit about financial e- and the financial education platform- Mm ... Ladies Talk Money? How do we get here? How do we get here? Tell me, what's your kind of dot points of your career?
Oof. I mean, everything looking back always feels like a nice linear- Mm-hmm ... trajectory. Of course- Yes ... when you're actually living it, it feels nothing like that at all. True. Um, I just put one foot in front of the other and kept going that way. Yeah. However, I... Yeah, I started off, you know, very green, doing all the, the uni and the international relations- Mm-hmm
global politics- Wow ... women's rights movements. They were my sort of bread-and-butter stuff. I loved it. Yep. And then I, my first sort of, quote-unquote, "job in the real world," uh, was in women's health and family violence. Mm-hmm. So doing administration and coordination support for frontline family violence services- Mm-hmm
in, uh, [00:04:00] Melbourne, Naarm. And I think it was there, working with so many, uh, older women- Mm-hmm ... in particular, who'd been doing this work for a really long time. Mm. They were doing research at the time, the organization that I was working at, which is called Women's Health in the North- Mm-hmm ... which is an exceptional and wonderful, uh, community grassroots organization, um, was doing research into, uh, women living longer on less.
Yeah. Wow. And so the idea of, like, you know, all of these women who'd spent their entire lives caring for others and doing things for other people, not getting financially remunerated for it. Mm. And then, you know, husbands leaving them or dying, and then having nothing financial to show for it. Yeah. And then we, as we know, women being the fastest growing population of people experiencing homelessness.
Yes. Yeah, women over 55. Mm. And I think at a really young age, I was like, "Oh my God, I don't wanna be one of those [00:05:00] women." Um, didn't wanna become a statistic in that way. Yes. And I just sort of gradually, yeah, just tried to do what I could to become more financially literate. Mm. So you've seen the other side of what happens when women don't have access to- Yeah
financial education, financial literacy, and means. Mm. Like, you can know everything, but you still need access to money and opportunity. So you've seen that other side. Mm. You've come through your career in the sort of comms- Yeah ... advocacy, feminism kind of, um, bent, and now you land here as an impact communicator.
Mm. So tell me, what do you think a purpose-led business is? Great question. I would define it as a business that is accountable to more than profit- Yes ... for shareholders. Mm-hmm. Or stake- uh, you know, that it, uh, defines business by its benefit to far [00:06:00] more than that. Mm. So the communities that you're part of, that you take responsibility for where and how you earn your money- Mm-hmm
uh, and that you track and communicate transparently- Mm ... your impact. Yes. Um, that was an extremely n- non-succinct way of saying- ... um, saying that. Um, but I think, you know, a lot of people think about purpose-led businesses like, "Oh, well, I've got a vision, and I've got a mission," but how do you use that to make decisions- Mm
in your business? Mm. Um, and the reality of that is sometimes those decisions will cost you more financially. Yes. Um, and that that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I've, I, I, I love asking people about- Mm ... definitions because, um, something I've noticed, so I started my business nearly- Yeah ... 16 years ago.
Which is phenomenal. Like, I'm, like, halfway there. Yeah. Halfway to that. And when I started, I said, "I'm only gonna work with [00:07:00] companies using- Mm ... business as a force for good," and people had no idea what I was talking about. Yeah. And the thing is, I had been lucky enough to work with these amazing- Mm
organizations, um, as an employee in the lead-up to this, and to me, it just made perfect sense to me- Mm ... that why would I wanna just work with anyone when I could work with someone doing good things for the world? Mm-hmm. And now, 16 years later, almost everybody that I meet- Right? It's a different landscape
seems... Yeah, they all seem to think that they are a purpose-led business- Mm-hmm ... or an impact-led business. But what I find really frustrating is that there isn't much when you dig below the surface. Sure. So what impact are you trying to make? What purpose do you have? Mm-hmm. How is being purpose-led d- you know, directing your decisions?
Mm. Um, and I feel that it's almost kind of moving into that greenwashing space now- Sure ... that everybody's impact-led, but very few of us can actually articulate that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Agree. So you being an impact [00:08:00] communicator and a brand strategist- Yeah ... I'm really keen to understand, how do you find that impact goal or the purpose behind these brands, and how does that inform the way that you're communicating their, you know, website copy, email marketing campaigns?
Tell me what it looks like. Wow. Yes, great question. It's funny, was when you were starting there, I was heading along the track of- This is one of the reasons why I wanted to become B Corp certified. Yes. Because it's fine for me to say, "I'm a purpose-led business," or- Mm ... "I am an impact-led business," or, um, you know, "I give back," or any of those things.
But unless you've got someone checking your homework- Mm ... and verifying it, then what good is... Yes ... you, you just have to take my word for it. Yes. And, you know, in a world where trust is such a vital part- Mm ... of our economy and our communities, um, you know, we're having to take people's [00:09:00] word for it, but we've also become really cynical at the same time because there is so...
We know in these capitalist kind of systems, people are incentivized to say they're doing all of these things even if they aren't. Yeah. So then you scratch below the surface, as you say, and there's a, there's not a hell of a lot of substance underneath it. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, that, that was a big sort of motivator for me behind the certification.
Mm-hmm. But then also I think one of the key parts of that community, and to sort of come back and answer your question in a roundabout way, is fundamentally it's about accountability. Yes. So I am accountable to far more than profit. Mm. I'm accountable to many stakeholders. Um, and to borrow a concept from, I mean, in a really colonial way, um, borrow a concept from First Nations communities that I have heard many times, and it's the idea of we think about, in our Western context, strategic planning in terms of [00:10:00] two, three, five, 10-year horizons- Yeah
or something like this. Yeah. So many indigenous communities are planning for seven generations- Yes ... or even 500-year plans- Mm ... in the future, and what different decisions would you make on a daily basis- Yes ... if you knew that had to stand the test of 500 years- Yeah, absolutely ... of work? It's, it's a phenomena- Uh, like it's such a different frame, and so to, to make sure that we are interrogating all of these ideas and systems about what we, what do we think purpose and impact led, and as you say, 16 years ago in your business, people were like, "What are, what are you talking about?"
Yeah. What is she talking about? Yeah. But in so many other parts of the world and other communities, there is no other way- Mm ... other than having an accountable business that is, you know, measuring more than success based on a bottom line. Yes. Like, this is such a specific kind of capitalist Western way of looking at what business is and what its function is.
Yeah. Whereas, you know, if we [00:11:00] sort of think of it in terms of its function to uplift everybody to generate and regenerate wealth and- Mm ... redistribute opportunity and all of the things that make reciprocity such a key part of the economy. Yeah. Um, you know, I just... I think that there's obviously so much to learn.
So in terms of, I think, the way that I then would connect that to, a, a statement on a website- Mm ... for a, for a business- Mm-hmm ... you actually just have to ask very hard questions. Mm. Or of like, well, why do you care about that? If you weren't getting paid for it, what would your business look like? Mm. And generally speaking, the people I tend to attract, probably similar to you- Mm
are the real bleeding heart types that are, like, so passionate about what they do anyway and are- Yeah ... trying to find- profitable ways to survive- Yeah ... in the world for something that they would probably do even if they weren't getting paid for it. Yeah. Yeah, but we need money to live. Yeah. [00:12:00] We need money- Yeah
to live. And- Yeah, we can hate on capitalism as much as we want to, but it is the current system of the day. Sure. So we need to try to work out how to live within it. Absolutely. And how can we make capitalism a little bit better? Yes, and I think, like, there is an inherent tension all the time in terms of functioning within these systems and kind of against the harms that they create.
Mm. And, you know, we're always looking for ways to try and do that better, but it is imperfect. Mm. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. I think, um, there's an organization that I always think too about this long-term strategy- Mm-hmm ... and it's Children's Ground. Oh, yes. So they have the most- I just read their annual report.
Isn't that-- Their- Yeah, phenomenal ... their mission is so well articulated, and it's not just a few sentences on a wall. Mm. They have a 25-year long strategy and always have. Yeah, phenomenal. And the sentences that they use to explain what they're about [00:13:00] and what they're trying to do, they interrogate them all the time.
Yeah. Because I was part of a conversation where we interrogated them. Wow. So I was in Alice Springs or Mparntwe. I'm sure I just said it wrong, but I tried my best. Um, and there were all of these kind of matriarchs that are all part of the, um, all of the elders that are part of the community and people who worked there and the CEO and, and many people who were there as guests.
And we all had an opportunity to say what we thought the principle that was written on the piece of paper in front of us meant. Mm. And I thought that was such a powerful way of really digging below something, you know. Um, uh, one of their principles is something like the best of old and new. Mm.
Something like that. Good one. I've mangled it, but that was the one that I interrogated. And, you know, that could mean so many different things, and I think it's really amazing- Mm ... to see an organization like that not just saying, "These are our principles," but [00:14:00] actually interrogating them, playing with them- Mm
seeing what other people think of them over time. And yeah, if anyone's looking for an example of really well-articulated impact and purpose- Mm-hmm ... Children's Ground is an amazing- Amazing example of that. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Um- Wholeheartedly agree. And I think, like, for, uh, uh, the phrase I kind of come back to often is, like, values need to be lived, not laminated.
Mm. So- Love that ... they're not set in stone. Yeah. Uh, and we have to figure out what they look like in action. The values and the value statements that we have, they're actually doing statements. Like, how do we do that? Because therefore, how can we be held accountable- Mm ... to that? Um, and that's exactly what that kind of sounds like.
And I think, you know, I've also had the experience of working within values-driven organizations always, and you're right, it's really contextually specific what some values mean, and they [00:15:00] mean something different to everybody. Mm. So going through the process of actually uncovering what does that value mean to your organization- Mm
not necessarily the individuals within the organization, but if the business itself is an entity. Mm. Like, what are the values and how do they play out? Yeah. Um, and, and try to define them. And I also love what you were just saying then, is it's essentially, um- It's ev- evolution in practice- Yeah ... because they're not fixed.
Mm. Like, they are changing, and, you know, when you know better, you do better. Mm. And then you tell that story- Yeah ... and how you've got from one place to the other. And look, I know both of us are really passionate about impact, but also sharing it, being progress over perfection. Mm. Just putting it out there, um, giving it a go, um, and more than happy to be held accountable or called out, called in for- Yeah
if we, you know, make a misstep, which we inevitably will. Yeah. While we're on that topic, I mean, [00:16:00] we were talking before we started recording about the fact that I do release- Mm ... an impact report, and I have for some years. Yeah. And I'm always trying to think about how I can get it to be better- Mm ... and it's something I talk with my clients about every week.
Um, so I release an impact report where I measure the things that are important to me, and- Such as? Uh, such as how many dollars I invested in other small business owners in that period of time. Mm-hmm. Because to me, that's something that's really important to me, is like if I wanna say that I'm a champion of small business, I've gotta put my money where my mouth is.
So investing in, in other business owners through their service provision, et cetera, making donations is something that I measure. Yeah. I look at what time did I spend in protest or advocacy. Mm. But I also look at things like how many clients did I work with- Mm-hmm ... and how many people read my emails and how many people listen to this podcast.
Hello. Testing, testing. Yeah. But what I'm, what I'm really wanting to [00:17:00] work on in the future is m- taking that concept of a theory of change- Mm-hmm ... from the not-for-profit social enterprise world and saying, "These are the things that I can measure fairly simply," the things I've just listed. But how can I start to measure, you know, my theory of change, which is that if I provide- Really great education- Mm
guidance, tools, and templates to small business owners, they will make more money. Yeah. And they won't just make more money for themselves, but they'll make more money and then it will spread through the community. So I'm trying to work on how can I start to measure the impact ripples that are beyond- Mm
what's easy for me to measure. I'm gonna guess that you are a small business owner who really cares about making money and impact. Me too. It's why I designed Good Money Club, which is a place for female small business owners to come together and learn about financial literacy, how to make and manage more money, [00:18:00] and how to think differently about money so that you get different results.
We talk about money every single week, and I promise you it doesn't feel gross. The more you learn about money, the more you immerse yourself into the kind of strategies that work for small business owners. You are gonna see yourself feel calm with money, and that is gonna lead to you making more revenue, paying yourself more, and really thinking about money in a whole different way that feels good.
Check out the link in the show notes to find out more about Good Money Club, and we would love to have you in there Um, but tell me about your experience of creating impact reports- Mm ... perhaps for others and for yourself. Oof. Um, I also love that you just said the impact ripples. Yeah. Which let's just briefly talk about one of the best examples I had ever seen about live impact [00:19:00] reporting- Yeah
was your inaugural Ripple Festival. Mm. And at the end, proudly standing on stage with Mia and going, "Hey, this is how much we gave back to small businesses." Yes. You know, this is, this is where your money and your ticket holders went, and we've, you know, this is the ripple of the Ripple Festival. Yes. And I thought, like, that was s- such a great, great not only piece of content, but, like, a way to live your values.
Thank you. Um, I loved that. Um, and yeah, you know, y- s- I think particularly in terms of impact reporting, uh, uh, are you a business of one as well? Yes. Ish? Yes. Yes. Likewise. Yeah. Um, and I can grapple with that another time about it, it feels so weird to, like, talk about yourself as a business- Mm ... when it's, like, just you.
Mm-hmm. Um, but you know, I think that, you know, we... "Oh, we're just one person." Mm. Like, what kind of impact can you actually have? But as we know, if everybody thought like that - Yeah, then nothing happened ... um, you know, where are we, yeah, [00:20:00] where are we getting? So, you know, I think that even if you are a sole trader, even if you are a teeny-tiny business, you actually can have a really positive impact.
Yes. You can also track a few things- Mm ... measure that impact, and share it. Mm. And I think that normalizing the practice of measuring and tracking and designing for that impact- Yes ... like, you know, in, I, I don't know, I, I assume it's built in to all your pricing as well, that, you know, okay, when someone works with you, you know that you can redistribute a certain percentage of whatever you bring in the door to others.
Mm. And, and I sorta take the same kinda mindset in my business. I'm about to publish my very first impact report- Ooh ... which I have been working on for six months. Yeah. And it's funny, I was reflecting last night as I put the literal final, final, final dot final version dot final, um. Um, as my, um, wonderful graphic designer, Rowena, from Pretty Creative- Mm-hmm
has said. Uh, so yeah, we've been working [00:21:00] on this together, and in it, I was like, "You know, you don't need an 89-page digital doorstop- No ... to, you know, show your impact." Neck minute, I've created effectively that. Um, but you know, the... I put together a lot of annual reports and impact reports- Yeah ... for people.
That's one of my favorite parts of, of my work. What makes good ones, I mean, there's no perfect science to it. I think it really depends and has to be particular for your context. I think what people don't interrogate enough is- what their audience actually needs or wants from them- Mm ... and to hear about.
Because I think we kind of get into this, this thing where we are so used to an annual report being a downloadable PDF- Mm ... that is 70 or 80 pages long that outlines all of the things we did, and has a letter from the executive director, and it has some financials at the end, and it has the this and the that.
Boring, boring, boring. Yeah. And I'm like, "Okay" [00:22:00] Not enough people are thinking, "Hmm, what is a really creative way that we could do this? What is a more accessible way that we can do this?" Because honestly, how, how many reports do you have sitting in your digital graveyard- Mm ... downloads folder? Mm. You go, "Oh yeah, I'll download that.
I'll read that another time." Never do, unless it's a great one, like Children's Ground. Um, you know, there's maybe a couple that I read, but I think, like, there is such a market out there for really creative ways of doing impact reporting- Yeah ... beyond, you know, a very huge, unwieldy PDF. I think a few things that are really helpful is to think of your impact reporting as marking a moment in time.
Yeah. That it's like, "Okay, what did I learn this year? What can I share of what I noticed? Uh, what am I really hoping to put out in the world for next year? What, uh..." Yeah, some of the things that are so specific to that time period, and creating a bit of a narrative arc- Mm-hmm ... through that. Mm. [00:23:00] So whether it's a, a word of the year or a theme of the year or a phrase or something that sort of serves as a through line, um, I think is a really effective way of kind of separating one year from the next, but really helping you as a, a business owner or someone to think about your impact.
To do with the theme, I don't know if you've ever done anything similar to that. I've never had- In your- ... a word of the year. Mm. I mean, maybe a while back I, I did. Mm. But I mean, I mean, I've been really thinking about my impact for a very long time. Yeah. And I've probably been actually reporting it for maybe four years or something.
Mm. And to be honest, my impact report is literally an Instagram carousel- Yeah. Great ... and an EDM. That's it. I don't overcomplicate it- Yeah ... because to me it's how do I get this out the door? And one of the reasons I put it out on Instagram is because my understanding from the community development sector, so my sister works in philanthropy, she works in a not-for-profit, she's a fundraiser, and I believe [00:24:00] it's still true that if you show others what you're doing in a philanthropic way, it encourages them to as well.
Mm. So that's one of the reasons why I share my impact report, is so that I can get other business owners thinking, "Hey, maybe I could do that, too. And look, these are the things that Fi is able to do as a solo- Mm ... business owner. Maybe actually I can start thinking about what impact I could create." Oh, that's exactly why I did mine.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's like that if you can see it, you can be it kind of vibe. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's so many really big organizations, they're like, "Oh no, we have to do an annual report." But, and it, possibly not a lot of people know this, but as part of your B Corp certification you actually have to publish- Mm
an impact report. Mm. So you have to have that level of transparency on what you did this year. Yeah. Um, so- Even me as a salt trader, I was like, "Okay, great. Now, now I've got to walk the talk. I've got to actually put together my own impact report." And that was kind of the impetus for me, but I thought, "Okay, through that process, what can I [00:25:00] create to help others do the same- Mm
B Corp or not?" And you know, what, what, I, I wanna be as transparent as possible about what do I track and how do I track it? We, uh... What do I measure? What am I redistributing? Where did I kind of fall short of some of the, I don't know, goals that I set or- Mm ... you know, commitments or, um, things that I made.
And, and also, I think one thing that people shy away from in terms of their impact reporting is doing the non-shiny side. Yes. Saying the shit bits out loud. Yeah, yeah. They're like, "Oh, no, I wanna show my business in the best possible light." Yeah. Well, actually, the most interesting parts is when we share the bits that went really sideways.
Yeah. And they're the bits that other people can learn from- Mm ... as well. So I made sure to include that in my report this year of like, hey, this is the non-shiny side of like... And I mean, probably particularly pertinent to your work is, like, cashflow. Mm. Bane of my existence. Mm-hmm. Honestly. Mm-hmm. Like, have tried over many years to try and smooth out that [00:26:00] rollercoaster to not a hell of a lot of avail.
And, you know, I've... feel like I've tried so many things, but, like, the feast and famine cycle sometimes of service-based small businesses- Yeah ... and probably most businesses- It's brutal. Mm. Yeah. Like and I'm just ... You know? So I, I wanted to actually speak some truth to that. Yeah. I wanted to speak some truth to all of the time that you spend scoping and quoting and doing all the things that never actually eventuate in work.
And- Yeah ... I was like, "Hmm, maybe I can come up with the idea of a, a Ghostbusters line for freelancers." Where it's like you know, the people who've just, like, disappeared into the fog and- Yeah ... like once you've, you know, had their discovery calls and doing all the things. And, like, I know you're a bit, you know, a big advocate for not necessarily doing this kind of bespoke quoting processes- Mm
because they take a really, like, they take a hell of a lot of time. Yeah. So, you know, yeah, I just wanted to s- make sure that I created some space to speak to [00:27:00] something a little bit juicier than just, like, "Oh, here's all my fabulous- All these great things I did ... wins. Yeah. Look at me." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that.
Mm. Um, look, we could have a whole podcast just talking about the feast and famine and- Okay ... you know, part of it is it is a little bit of a mindset thing too. Yeah. I wanna talk about this generally. I'll just ... You can't pop a topic like that in there and not let me e- explore it a little. Too juicy? A dangle for you?
Um- Okay. So- Come at me. I'm just, I'm gonna lean back. Yeah. All right? So, okay. Put in the work. So feast and famine is ... It's kind of a trope or like- Mm ... a sort of a story arc or a narrative. Okay. It's almost ... It's the same kind of thing of, like, a starving artist, right? It's just something that we've all accepted is true.
Okay. So how do we make it not be true? Sure. The feast and famine. Okay. So there's a few ways. We can't ever stop marketing. Mm-hmm. So we need to work out what marketing we can do that's sustainable always, so that we always have leads coming in. [00:28:00] Yes. The other way that we can stop the feast and famine is by productizing our services.
Okay. And so the idea is instead of every client coming in and saying, "This is what I want," you say, "What is the client that I want to work with, and what do I know is the best thing that I can do for them?" Mm-hmm. So you're the expert in impact communication and brand strategy for purpose-led business owners.
So what do they need? Okay, they really need these things, so I'm going to create a program, a package, a whatever you wanna call it, that delivers the things that I know these organizations- Mm-hmm ... need. And I'm going to help them through the discovery call, my proposal, and how I follow up the proposal to help them see that I am the expert in getting this result for them.
And therefore, this is the way that I deliver it. Now, the benefit of productizing, it's actually really good for the customer and for you. Because for the customer, they feel like they're in safe [00:29:00] hands. They're like, "Carmen has got this." Without a doubt. She knows so much about this that she actually is gonna- Has a full process
take us through the process that she takes us through. But from your business perspective, you can actually plan your capacity a lot better too. Mm. So you can say, "I could take on three of those at a time." Yeah. And then that becomes your sort of yardstick going forward as- Mm-hmm ... in terms of where is my capacity?
Do I have three clients for three months' time? If not, that's what I need to start thinking about. Yeah, definitely. The other thing that I wanna zoom in on is that most of us give up on our proposals too early. Yes. I was- We're like- You were saying this in a previous pod that I was just listening to. Yeah.
Yes, I agree with you. Yeah. I got ghosted. I'm just gonna wrap myself in a doona and never talk to that person again. And so what happens is we've had the discovery call, we've sent the proposal, and then crickets. Yeah. And so then our mind starts taking over, and it's like, "Oh, Carmen." Yeah. You know, "Oh, you're shit."
Yeah. "That proposal was stupid." [00:30:00] We fill the vacuum with a story that- Exactly ... was already there ready to go. The price was too high. Yeah. The something was wrong. The way I did it was bad. I didn't something, something. And then we never follow up. But what could be happening for the other person is they have forgotten about it, they're busy, their mum's sick.
Mm-hmm. They've got a deadline. And then it goes so long- That now they feel awkward. Mm-hmm. So they're like, "Oh my God, Carmen sent me that proposal-" Yeah ... two months ago. Or it expired. And I- Like, 'cause you put expire- ... never got back- Yeah ... to her, and I really wanted to work with her, but now I am so embarrassed."
So by following that person up, we're actually making it not weird for them to be like, you know, you can even send an email two months later and say, "Hey babe, loved talking with you. Was really excited about your project. It's totally cool that you haven't gotten back to me yet, but if you're still keen, let's just jump on another call."
Mm. So if you, Carmen, have any leads out there in the world that you haven't chased up, that's your homework. [00:31:00] Chase them up. Um, you can't see this, listener, uh, but, uh, Fi picked up the mic and then dropped it. I'm joking. These mics are way too expensive. Um But yeah, I mean, this- Yeah ... is what we do, is we do all of this work to bring the client in.
Agreed. We get them in. We do the discovery call. We do the proposal, and then we stop there. Mm. And I get why we do. Like, it feels horrible when someone doesn't respond immediately. Mm. But actually, there's so many strategies that we can employ after the proposal goes out. Yeah. Um, yeah, I'm pretty sure there's episodes about this that people can go back and listen to.
There was. There was a really good one that, um, I'm just struggling to think of. It might've been the cape tune- Oh, yeah ... one. Yeah. I think it was that one. Yeah. Um, and to sort of pick up on one th- other thing that you said about the, the never stop marketing. Mm. That's one thing I found so incredibly difficult.
Yeah. And it has been a really deliberate strategy this year to try to even out or smooth [00:32:00] out that kind of rollercoaster. Anybody looking for an impact communicator or brand strategist, Carmen Hawker is who you need to talk to. And what do you need to do? Come and get it. Come and get it. Come on. See, it's right there for you.
Um- Yes, but this is the thing. Yeah. If we, if we want to escape the feast famine- Yeah ... we've got to go, "Cool, I could just accept that," or I could go, "What are the things that I could do differently?" Oh, definitely. "How can I change my approach?" And, you know, I actually think it's one of the hardest parts of doing business, particularly when you're a party of one and your time- Yeah
uh, your, you know, it's not as scalable as some other- Yeah. Time is limited. Um, yeah. It is ... I mean, it's limited for everybody. Yeah. But in some businesses, you will have someone where that is their entire job. You know, whereas you're wearing all the hats at the same time. As I wrote in my impact report, despite a d- a genetic predisposition to looking terrible in hats, I wear a lot of them in my business.
And like making sure that you market, 'cause you, you get in all the leads. You start, you're doing all the work, and you are absolutely, like, tonguing it. [00:33:00] Yeah. You are just absolutely s- exhausted, and you think, "Oh, no, I couldn't possibly take on any more work even if it came- Yeah ... came in, so I'm not gonna market because I don't want anyone to come to me because I am too busy right now."
Yeah. And then you finish those projects. Mm. Lo and behold, well- Shit ... crickets Now I got no clients. Yeah. Yeah. And then you panic, um, and then you're starting to get out there, and then your marketing reeks of desperation. Yeah. You know so it's this like actually marketing when you are full up- Yeah
actually keeps you in the abundance cycle. Yeah. So that's been a really deliberate sort of ploy for me this year. Yeah, love that. So maybe this year isn't gonna be so much feast and famine. No, not so far. Mm. But it has ... Yeah, that was definitely my story of, of last year and probably a couple previous. Yeah.
But ... And look, I've worked with a business coach, the wonderful Alana Robertson from Founder- Awesome ... for, like, three or four years now. And predominantly, the work that I've done with her is making sure that you've got the rhythms, rituals, and routines that you can build a [00:34:00] sustainable high performing pace- Love that
from. Yeah. And so- I know when I'm showing up and doing the things that you know works, and to be more loyal to what you're building- Mm ... than getting distracted by the shiny detour- Yeah ... every now and then. You know? It's so fun. Ah, yeah, so fun. Yeah, it's great. It's all fun until you fall off a cliff. Yeah.
Like, it's ... And, you know, we've gotta be in the business of doing good business. Yeah. You know, otherwise we're not gonna be around to tell the tale, so. Yeah. Yeah, so I've been working with her, and like, I, I think this year, after many years working with her, it did kind of finally click that I do, did need to put more effort into some of that, you know- The ongoing marketing
getting out there. Yeah, the ongoing- Yeah ... things out there. And I- Mm ... I absolutely don't have it anywhere close to figured out, but I've at least set ... And similar to what you're saying about your impact reporting, is like set a sustainable rhythm- Mm ... that works for you. So for me, I like designed these little Monday sessions, um, I'm calling my [00:35:00] MVP sessions.
Mm-hmm. So it's money, visibility, pipeline. Love it. MVP, and I do like one little activity on those, and I track them- Yeah ... in a Spready every week, and I, you know, write, okay, this is what I did and this is the impact of it, and is there any follow-up? And, and I'm just trying to keep accountable to myself- Mm
um, for doing that. And it has been You know, one of the most abundant, wonderful years for me so far, and I'm really keen to keep at that lovely high frequency. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So in my opinion, small business is the best vehicle we have to create change in the world. Ooh. It's this economic ... It's a, it's a tool for economic empowerment.
Mm-hmm. And so if you look back through history, like I try to imagine explaining to my grandmas, who no longer are alive, what I do for a living, and it's just, I, I just don't know if I could give them enough context to make it make sense. But the internet has basically democratized small business [00:36:00] to a degree, so people from all over the world can now make money who could never do it before.
Mm-hmm. And I think we've got this intersection of people who wanna do really great things, and they need to make money to live. And in my mind, it's actually really easy to make the two live together once you have the right approach. Mm. But I'm keen to understand, you know, as somebody who's always worked in these kind of advocacy, feminism, domestic violence, you know, homelessness, there's a lot of ideas and sort of, um, you know, wow, this, I don't want that for myself, or kind of some entrenched beliefs can come in, um, working in those spaces.
So I'm keen to understand this sentence of women are bad with money, or I'm bad- Mm ... with money. Tell me, is that something that's kind of been part of your trajectory, and how does somebody who thinks, "I'm bad with money," become someone doing an MVP every Monday- Ha ... and working on their money? [00:37:00] Ooh. Tell me about your journey.
Good one. That's a good question. Well, um- I mean, unsurprisingly, it's a relatively long-winded answer. So I had started in these community services. Mm. Now, I also do this in the context of in my nuclear family- Mm-hmm ... my mum is an ICU nurse. Mm-hmm. You know, frontline worker- Yeah ... severely underpaid. Mm.
Underpaid equals undervalued. Yes. Um, and, you know, choices get made within families on taking care of children and other things based on who's bringing in more money, and more often than not, that means women then take care of children because they weren't bringing in as much money. And so also watching that and wanting to have professional skills and, and a level of independence as well, but then I'm working in all these community services that were exceptionally underpaid- Right
and they're highly feminized industries, so, you know, s- severe overt [00:38:00] representation, um, of women. However, the people in leadership positions do tend to be men- Yes ... even still in these- Yeah ... in these industries, and you sort of get underpaid because you should be, quote-unquote, doing it for the love of it.
Yeah. And then going into sort of international development spaces and then co-founding a not-for-profit- Mm ... I was doing this largely voluntary- Mm ... for, like, six years. Mm. Yeah, I used to be absolutely allergic to talking about money. Like, I did not want to talk about it. I was so ashamed, uh, of, you know, how much or not I'd-- I had in my bank account.
I would almost wear it as a badge of honor to be like, "No, I don't talk about money," or, "I'm bad with this"- Mm ... or, "I, I'm terrible at numbers," or... And then I think I sort of got to the point where I'm like, "Who is this serving- Mm ... other than people who try to sell you things that you can't, you can't do [00:39:00] it, so I need to do it for you and hand over your control and, and the reins to me?"
So I'm like, "Okay, well, who benefits from me thinking that I'm, or internalizing the idea that I'm bad with money or bad with numbers? It's certainly not me. And if it's certainly not me, it's certainly not the people around me. It's not my community. It's not what I can then do with that money." So I think I sort of made it my personal mission to figure it out.
Mm. Like, you're a smart enough person. Like, figure it out. Like- Yeah ... um, and I, I generally, as a strategy in my life, if I'm avoiding something, I tend to think, "Okay, no, that's the thing I need to run towards- Mm ... now, um, and that's where I'll have the most impact." So I started to basically just make money my whole personality.
Right. Uh, don't know if you can relate. Um . Um, part of it was- Kicked off by starting my own [00:40:00] business, yes, so I had to get across it. I had to become comfortable with it, particularly if I wasn't yet at the point where I wanted to outsource a lot of that thinking. Mm. So I needed to know enough to be dangerous- Yeah
as my accountant would say. Yeah. Uh, shout out to Emma from The Women's Accountant- Woo-hoo ... who is fabulous. Yeah, she would always say to me, "Just know enough to be dangerous." Yeah. And then if, if, you know, you don't hand over entire control of your finances to anybody. Exactly. So I, I feel like I tried to learn enough and do things really manually, take forever, sit in front of your spreadsheets, make them all make sense to you.
I spent an inordinate amount of time color-coding- Yeah ... making them real pretty- Yeah ... so that I actually wanted to open them. Yeah. And I, yeah, would sit there and just do that for hours and hours and hours, um, until I felt like I got really comfortable with it. But it was actually through the process of
Now, if I think about, yes, impact communications, but it's personality driven [00:41:00] copy, values led sort of writing. I wanted to make sure the things are really accessible and interesting. So what are some of the most boring industries there are? Uh, finance. No offense. But there is the p- the way people often talk about finance is like- Yeah
the driest- Yeah ... most bor- oh, my Even though everybody loves money and everybody loves spending money. Everyone ... I know, right? But then somehow the finance world just hasn't quite- Oh, snooze ... got it yet. Absolute snooze. So what I was finding early on in my career was a couple of people coming to me who were different finance people, who were like, "Hey, help me sound like an actual human- Oh
and make finance more interesting." And it was actually through working with clients in financial services that I started to get really excited about money. I love that. And, like, I think for a lot of copywriters out there, like you, you sort of get to know a little bit about a lot of things. Yeah. So you sort of like
To be able to write about something- Yeah, you have to understand it ... you have to communicate, you have to understand it. Yeah. But obviously you're not a specialist in that area, but you [00:42:00] then, you sort of accumulate all of this knowledge along the way. Mm. Um, so it's, it's really fun. And so I started working with accountants, financial advisors- Mm
mortgage brokers, people who did self-managed super funds, and then I was involved as a sort of early, I think, first 100 members of Australia's first superannuation fund for women by women, Verve Super. Whoop. Um, massive whoop whoop. Love and shout-out to Christina and Alex and Zoe and the team. And doing a lot of their content- Mm
uh, for superannuation, and I got so passionate about superannuation. Oh my God. Yeah. How exciting. So being able to make the link from feminism- Yeah ... to superannuation. And I was like, "Oh, this is what I was doing really early in my career," and then I've- Yes ... kinda come back to it. And then basically my whole trajectory of my 30s has just been like money, money, I just wanna talk about it.
I want to figure out, really similar to you, how do we get more money in the hands of more people who are doing good with it? Yes. And I'll introduce you to a [00:43:00] little concept that I sort of came up with, was totally untested, um- I like to call it the feminist money laundry. Mm-hmm. So I just think of myself as gathering as much, you know, money and whatever as I can, and then washing it through your values, and then spitting it out in the world nice and clean again.
Love it. Um, and so I just think of, you know, my ability to make money is also my ability to redistribute wealth- Yes ... and opportunity. So I, like... And I know if I've got values and accountability built into my business- Mm ... you don't have to shy away from making more of it. Yeah. Because I know that means more impact.
Yeah. So- Yeah ... it's so exciting. My own income is impact. Yeah. So if, if you're using- For the right person. Yeah It is. If you're using your income, your revenue- Yeah ... to improve people's lives and businesses- Yeah ... through your business- Mm ... then every dollar that you bring in is impact. Mm. Yeah. Like, there's a direct line between the two.
I agree. Yeah. And I'm not interested [00:44:00] in hoarding it, and part of that is you have to define what is enough. Mm. And you need to not get swayed by people out there selling seven-figure business this, that, and the other, you know, whatever. And it's like that doesn't necessarily matter as much- Mm ... as the impact that you're creating and the values and how you're actually living them.
Yeah. But I'm also really conscious of who do I take money from. Mm. You know, as part of my certification and having an impact, like a verified impact business model, it's 70% of my clients have to be purpose-driven and accountable to more than profit. Yeah. And I've signed, you know, comms declare and other things- Mm
where it's like I'm not gonna be using what I know are powerful skills- Mm ... of the words and communication to amplify people who are polluting- Yeah ... the planet and exploiting people. Mm. So, you know, if I have a belief in the value of my skills, which I do, I'm not gonna [00:45:00] use them for nefarious purposes. Mm.
Yeah. Yeah, I love this. So you start out working in these different community spaces. Mm. You've watched your mom, who's an ICU nurse, often having to prioritize childcare- Mm-hmm ... at, over work, and then you've kind of worked in all these different spaces. You've realized, "Shit- Mm-hmm ... I still think I'm bad with money.
How can I attack that head-on?" Mm-hmm. "How about I go and work with finance people- That's it ... and see if I can come 'round the back door to understand what the hell this money thing is?" Mm-hmm. You've got so excited about it. Yeah. You've fi- you've realized that the feminism back at the start and money is the same thing.
Yeah. So tell me, like- Great vehicle, yeah. Yeah. Agree. So what, what are the things that you've learned? What are the, what are the different ways that you've absorbed this different knowledge about money, and then how are you applying it? Yeah, 'cause I get so excited. I, this is one of the reasons I'm just like, I'm so excited about this podcast.
I can just talk about money the whole time. And again, it's, it's not money for the sake of [00:46:00] money. It's, like, I'm not sitting here just to Scrooge McDuck my way through life. Mm. Like, I'm here with all of the h- the possibilities it opens for you, um, and the way that you can express your values. So one of the key things, and through an organization called Pure Finance- Mm
which was the first B Corp, uh, mortgage brokerage in Australia. Mm. And through them and a financial advisory called Fox and Hare, they started a platform called Ladies Talk Money. Mm. So free education platform to basically not shy away from any of these conversations and have really courageous, unapologetic conversations about all of the things that we are taught are not, quote-unquote, "ladylike."
Yeah. By the way, that's how they kept women broke in the past. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. This is h- yeah. Yeah. D- don't open that Pandora's box- Okay ... 'cause I was like, we'll be here for days. Hours. You know, but sort of to your [00:47:00] point about your, your grandmothers or, you know, f- foremothers not knowing or making sense of what you do now- Mm-hmm
like, it would be unthinkable in previous generations for us to have the level of financial independence- Yes ... literacy- And wealth as well ... knowledge, and wealth that we have. Yeah. Mm. And ease. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the ease of our lives compared to two generations or three or, you know, beyond- My goodness me ... it's, it's in, in uncomparable.
And, you know, it is the boys' club's best-kept secret for a reason. Mm. So, yeah, uh, in the process of sort of co-founding and p- you know, putting that platform out into the world was like, "Right, yeah, I'm really making it my whole personality now just to talk about money and what we can do with it." Yeah. And, you know, making sure that we would demystify some of the jargon.
Yeah. Because we think about, like, what, what really keeps people locked out of these systems is not knowing the right language or not understanding, but actually there are a [00:48:00] lot of people that benefit from and make a lot of money from keeping us locked out- Yeah ... by creating very confusing jargon. Yeah.
Like, it's actually one of the tools and tactics of these kinds of- Yeah, we have to lie to talk about money. Absolutely. We don't talk about money at the table. Yeah. We don't talk about money in front of guests. No, we never talk about how much we make, and we think about even something like wage transparency in organizations.
Like, you know, companies that have got away with paying men and women unequally even though it's been the law since the '70s, like, is... A big reason for this is a wage opacity. Mm. Like, nobody knows what everyone's earning. I can slide you extra bonuses under the table. I can do the... You know, and it's like, it, it never benefits people without structural power.
Mm. So, yeah, so that, that was really exciting. So we started Ladies Talk Money, I reckon it was 2021, and through that process we have done a couple [00:49:00] of annual campaigns for equal pay day. Mm-hmm. So Out of Sight, Out of Pocket- Mm ... was our, uh, campaign. It was sort of to, uh, make sure we had more intersectional data- Yeah
for the pay gap, because obviously we have a national figure, which is an average, but so many people are not average. Yeah. Um, and that was obscuring the fact that there was a much bigger gap for- Mm ... First Nations women. There's a much bigger gap for women with disability. There's even a bigger gap for queer women.
Mm. And, you know, and gender diverse and non-binary people are basically not even counted in the data. Yeah. So, and, and, you know, there's also- differences in the national averages for men- Mm ... that have different intersecting identities as well. Mm. So we're sort of pushing for a greater level of data- Mm ... uh, that then helps us see what the real problems are.
Because if you can't see them in the data, you can't see them in the solutions either. Mm. And so that was the campaign we've been running for a couple of years, and I think- Awesome ... there's some really important things that have been [00:50:00] happening in that space, and building on the decades of advocacy and work that had come before us.
We were not the first people to be talking about this- Mm ... in the slightest. And then, yeah, last year we've, uh, Jess Brady, who was one of my co-founders of Ladies Talk Money, she then went out on her own. She's a now ex-financial advisor. Mm-hmm. She's just let go of her license, but she's a financial educator.
Mm-hmm. Has a fellow fabulous money podcast called Financially Fierce- Awesome ... um, if you're also into, yeah, more money podcasts. And she brought out her first book- Awesome ... probably last. Um, and I think the process nearly killed her- Yeah ... and me. Yeah. Um, and helping her edit and kind of doula the book out- Mm
into the world Mm ... last year. So, and you obviously can't see, but I am now holding a beautiful copy of Jess's wonderful book, Get Growing: No Nonsense Guide to Cultivating Wealth and Financial Freedom. If you don't [00:51:00] mind, um- And so you were part of the process of co-writing- I was. I was- ... um, that with her? Yeah, and I mean, it was such a privilege to then go through every area of personal finance that you wish you literally just had the book on.
Mm. Like, where did you miss the memo? You know, now you've got the memo. Yeah. Like, you've now got the things that you need to know to sort of take- A level of control. But I think one thing that often gets missed, I know you've talked about this before, people jump straight to the, "Ah, but I just wanna know about investing."
Yeah. Or, "I just wanna know about," I don't know, "insurance or tax or s-" you know, whatever, super. No. Start at your identity- Mm ... and money stories. Yes. Because how is that playing out? Like, what habits do you have? What things have you learned growing up? What's been reinforced by media? And for me, I mean, you've already pointed out, feast and famine cycle is actually- Mm
a story- Yeah ... that I've heard that's resonated, and I've found some evidence for in my business. But I've then [00:52:00] held onto that. Yeah. So it's like- You've weaved a track in your mind- 100%, yeah ... that's so strong that it's, it's, it's still there. And it becomes self-fulfilling. Yeah. And so, you know, uh, that's work for me to then do, to go back and try and uncover or unearth some of those money stories, and then how they weave their way into your world.
Mm. Women being bad with money. Yeah. Key, key one. Yeah. And I'm like, actually, if I look around, like at, uh, most of the hetero couples I know, and most of the families even that I grew up with, the women are really shit hot with money, actually. Yes, yeah. They're really shrewd budgeters. They're not wasteful.
They are not in huge amounts of debt. You know, like I watched my nan look at her... She had, like a little, um, diary, and she would put in her diary when the bills were coming up, and she would slip, like, "Okay, that's 20 d- " She would actually put physical notes- Yeah ... in the diary when- Yeah ... that was ready to be paid.
It was the original barefoot investor. Yeah. Well, you know. It was how our grandmothers used to [00:53:00] segregate their money. You know? Yeah. No one would've taught her- Mm ... how to do that. Yeah. And she found herself, my grandad died the, in his late 60s, and so she, she actually, she lived till she was 100. Did her yeah.
Uh, Queen Pauline, we love. She, she would be so proud. Uh, like you were talking before about explaining it to your grandma, like, no chance I'd be trying to explain- ... explain this to Queen Pauline. Mm. Um, but you know, uh, so many of the, like, money lessons I feel like I learned early on were even from her. Yeah.
Just, like, watching her do that, and it was like, you know, she used to love the pokes, loves the pokies. But it was, I would never spend more than I'm willing to lose. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like- She put the money aside for bills- ... she set her limit. She's super disciplined. Exactly ... before she went to the pokies.
Yeah, and she just, like, she'd have a set amount of money, and, like, "That's what I'm prepared to lose, and I'll have as much fun as that lasts me." Mm. And that's it. Yeah. And then I go. So it's like this, I don't know. She just... All of those little lessons that you soak up along the way- [00:54:00] Mm ... you know, it's really important that you're actually aware of them as an adult.
Yeah. Because otherwise you'll just keep acting out of them unconsciously. Mm. And some of them are really unhelpful. Yeah. Like, you know, you can't make money and do good. Yeah. How many times, like- Yeah ... uh, it, for me particularly, like, in not-for-profit, oh, it's very noble, but you can't expect somebody else to pay you- Yeah
to do something that makes you happy. Yes. But then the flip side of that that often happens in not-for-profits is that not-for-profits wanna work with freelancers, but then they ask them to give them a better rate because they're a not-for-profit. And this is something that I have quite a big problem with.
So- Fascinating ... the money stories flow in many different directions, and I love that you talked about Jess Brady and her podcast Financially Fierce. I can't talk about personal finance because the financial world is very legislated. Mm. So I can talk about small business and business finances, and what I know is that women make [00:55:00] amazing money managers in small business.
Yeah. We tend to be really good at managing cash and making sure that the money, like your grandma with the $20- Mm ... going to f- 15 days ahead in the- Yeah ... in the diary, women are really good at that too- Mm ... and sort of managing the money, making sure there's money for things when we need it. What men do better, I'm putting this in inverted commas, um, is that they, they take bigger risks.
Now, that can have a... You know, there's a sliding scale there. So men tend to be much more aggressive and assertive in terms of investing in things like equipment, buying businesses, taking chances on things that have potential upside. And what I'd love for women in business is to start dipping a little bit into that category.
So it's like we are amazing money managers. Mm-hmm. Let's just accept it. Yeah. We're really good at managing our money. We are really good at making financial decisions- Mm-hmm ... when we have the information available. Let's start taking some little bit [00:56:00] bigger risks with our money too. But, like, to challenge you on that, why do men take bigger risks?
Exactly. It's because of the money stories they've been told is that- Yeah ... men make better investments. And the system, like, you know, women who take big swings and fall- Mm, oh, they're crucified ... they don't get back up. Exactly. They are absolutely crucified. And so I'm like, you know, it's not, we're not functioning on a level playing field here.
Absolutely not. And I think particularly when we start talking about risk- Mm ... um, and this goes for women, but also people with intergenerational disadvantage and poverty. Mm. And it's like you can't budget your way out of poverty. Absolutely not. And, like, the... I feel like these kind of, the big swings and the, yeah, the big risky things and the things that men are really rewarded for in society are not available to everybody.
Yes. So I feel like, you know, yes, we need to make sure that the sy- like, s- there is systemic change and, and a, a holding of that complexity- Mm ... while we are, yes, as individual women functioning, uh, in the system, yeah, [00:57:00] take a bit more risk and- Yeah ... let's have a go. Yeah. But we also know why things- Yeah ... are- Yes
that way. So let's make a pact right here on this podcast. Okay. You and me, but also every- Is there blood involved? No. Everybody else who's listening too. I agree with everything that you've said, and I think what I have said is also true. Yeah. Which is that, yes, there's systemic issues. When women fail, they are absolutely crucified.
So what we can do as women is actually support women who have failed. Mm-hmm. Right? So this is something that we can take a bit of a pledge together- Sure ... to be like, yes, there's systemic issues. Yes, if you're looking for VC funding, it's highly unlikely that you're gonna get it. Mm-hmm. But look to other women and go, "Is there another woman that can help me?"
Take this risk in a way that feels safer for me. Sure. So that might be accessing capital from another woman. Mm-hmm. Or it might be saying, "Hey, I'm doing something really scary for the next three months." Mm. "Can I call you every Sunday at [00:58:00] 10:00 AM?" Like, there's actually things that we can do as women to support other women- Without a doubt
taking these risks. Don't pull the ladder up- Exactly ... after you've climbed up to- Yes ... up it. Yeah, for sure. 'Cause my thinking about financial and business risk, and it's not just financial risk, it's visibility risk too. Mm-hmm. So for somebody listening, a huge risk might be getting their phone out and recording a video on it and putting it- Oof
on Instagram. Yeah. Like, that can be- Terrifying ... a huge risk. Yeah. Right? So there's all different types of risk, but what I feel is the kind of avenue or the vehicle towards taking a risk is having a safe place to land, right? That's what I call Good Money Club. So every week in there, women are taking risks, big and small.
Mm. And they know that they have the container of the group that keeps them safe to fall. Beautiful. So that's the commitment that you and I are making, and everybody listening to this podcast, that when you see women- Hi, Mom and That when you see women taking risks, back them, support them. Oh, [00:59:00] million percent.
If you, if you know something about money, share it with other women. Yeah. If you have money, share it with other women. Yeah. You know, if you can invest in somebody else's business, do it. Like, venture capital is not the only way to get funding for big ideas. Mm. So yes, men are rewarded. There's a whole strategic...
There's not a level playing field, but we can start to kind of just level it out a little bit by taking care of women. And men can take care of women, too. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yay. Okay. We could be here for hours. I feel that w- this is a really great place to start- ... winding our conversation down.
Yeah. Um, something I'd love to know is, you know, you've had all of these different coaches- Mm-hmm ... and I love it when people invest in coaching and advice- Yeah ... because that's how we get further. Yeah. And we get further faster. What is it that you've learned about money that you feel you could share with the audience that's helped you?
Yeah. [01:00:00] And well, when you were saying that, my dad also popped into my head, so shout out to, to Bob. Hey, Dad. Uh, because he was a business owner. Mm. And I feel a lot closer to him in running my business and this idea of the big swings. Mm. Whenever I feel on the precipice of, like, doing something kinda risky or bold or whatever, I, like, pick up the phone and call him, and he- Yeah
like, kind of coaches me through it, and I'm like, to have kinda access to that has been really useful for me. That's lovely. Um, there were two or three things that, like, sorta came to mind. One of them was something you said very recently- It's not your job to be affordable. Yeah. It's your job to be valuable.
Yes. F- like phenomenal advice. Piggybacking off that, something that my accountant, Emma, would say, "Get out of your customers' pockets." Oh, yeah. Yeah. And there was- So if anyone doesn't know what that means- Oh, please do. Yeah ... we, we often make assumptions about how much our customers are willing to pay without actually [01:01:00] asking them.
Oh my God And one other one that I had was Jas from The Pricing Queen. Mm-hmm. We price ourselves as if we're the ones paying the bill. Yes. And so we just try and make it, like, what we think is affordable. Yes. But, like... A- and I mean, it's very similar to getting out of your customers' pockets. And then, look, I also think that we absolutely need to shout out the brilliant and wonderful First Nations women who I've learned heaps from in terms of re- you know, economies of reciprocity.
Uh, and particularly wanted to shout out Loreesha V. Jerome. Oh, yeah. Uh, Liberate with Loreesha. Yeah. Um, I did a, a really phenomenal masterclass with her a couple of months ago on self-worth is your net worth. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I'm just like... And the frequency and the sh- I mean, she chose it on a full moon.
It was just, like- ... one of those, like... Oh. And, and afterwards it was like, wow, you feel so raw and so, you know. But, like, [01:02:00] understanding of, like, this idea of, like, setting yourself free and, you know, decolonizing the way that you think about your money, but also yourself. You know, we've talked a lot on this pod about the things that we do, but, like, beyond that, there are so many more things that we are.
Mm. You know, we are both generous people. I mean, we also bonded over we're both aunties. We take our auntie role so seriously. You know, we're kind and we're proactive and we're, you know, so many thing. We're accountable and we're raw and we're flawed. Mm. And all of the things that I'm like, you know- How dare you?
How dare... I know. Woke up like this, obviously. Um, you know, so, so to, so also, you know, really think about all that we are far beyond just what we do, and to, to make sure that, yeah, we use our presence and our kindness is [01:03:00] currency- Mm ... as well. Um, and yeah, sort of creating this, um, reciprocity economy as well.
And, like, I sort of was just thinking then, both of my wonderful sisters have two little, two little kiddos each. So proud, proud auntie. And my sister, on their birthdays, often reflects on, like, okay, what has that last year been like? Mm. And it's more often than not been a complete shit show. Um, they're very small children that don't sleep.
And she said to me recently, "Everyone talks about the village and wants the village, but they don't want to show up as villagers." Oh, yes. This is something that I am quite passionate about too. Yeah, likewise. And if I'm like- The village is volunteering to- Literally ... each other. You gotta give It's not a one-way village.
Yeah, you gotta give. Yeah. And you know, I, I also, I found this translated into even, like, you know, B Corp communities. These are really impact-led, purpose-driven people, and yet some people get their certification, they come [01:04:00] into the meetings, and they go So how can I leverage the certification for my business?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. How can I use it to make more sales? Yeah, they see it as purely a marketing tactic. It's like this is fundamentally the wrong question. Instead, what do we ask is, what can I give- Mm ... into this space to make it better for everyone? And, you know, that's kind of what I think about with my one is, like, how can I give more of it?
And that, of course, it comes back to you in other ways, but that's not why you do it. Mm. So yeah. Anyway, they're just some- Yeah. So if you- ... some, some ramblies ... if you want a village, whether it's your business or your family- Bloody show up ... or your parenting- Show up ... become somebody else's village. Show up.
Seems like a great place to end it. Thank you so much for being here, Carmen. Oh, what a bloody pleasure. We'll have to get you back on the podcast- ... so we can continue, and you can tell us how you went with rewiring your feast and famine- Yes ... story. Yep. I'm, I'm keen to check back in on that. Perfect. So thank you for being here.
Put a pin in that for now. And if anybody needs a brand strategist and amazing communicator- [01:05:00] Oh ... where can they find you? Funnily enough, that's why my business is called what it is, carmengettit.com.au. Okay. So head to the website. You'll see all of the ways that you can work with Carmen, and you'd be crazy not to. Thanks. Thank you. Love ya. Bye. Bye.
Money Secrets Outro
Thank you so much for listening right up to the end. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Money Secrets, where we talk about the money secrets of successful small business owners. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love it if you'd subscribe to the podcast, but leave us a review or share this episode with one of your friends. I hope you learned something. I hope you got a new perspective, and I really hope you enjoyed the listening [00:31:00] experience
