Retail done right, with Dara Shashoua of Byzantine Design (EP#81)

Season #3 August 25, 2026

How do you build a retail business that stands the test of time?

You stop chasing overnight success and start treating business like the long game it really is.

In this episode of Money Secrets, Fi is joined by Dara Shashoua, founder and creative director of Byzantine Design, Melbourne's most beautiful tile store. A boutique retail experience specialising in bespoke natural stone, architectural surfaces and highly customised design solutions.

More than a decade ago, Dara left Sydney, moved to Melbourne knowing fewer than five people, and started building her business from the ground up. What began as a small showroom with no customers has grown into a destination for architects, interior designers and homeowners looking for beautiful materials and highly personalised design solutions.

Dara shares the lessons she's learned from more than 12 years in business, from trusting her intuition and building genuine customer relationships to navigating a chronic illness, hiring a team, outsourcing, managing money and learning where her time creates the most value.

Fi and Dara explore why business owners need to stay involved when outsourcing, why the founder is always the best salesperson in the business, and how understanding your strengths leads to better financial and business decisions.

Whether you're building a retail business, growing a service-based business or creating something premium, this episode is a refreshing reminder that meaningful businesses aren't built overnight.

🎧 Tune in to discover why building a great business is a marathon, not a sprint, and why some of the most valuable lessons happen along the way.

What you'll learn in this episode:

Business is a marathon, not a sprint. Building a premium, sustainable business can take much longer than you expect.
Small steps can build a bigger vision. Dara incrementally grew Byzantine Design from a tiny showroom into a destination store.
Relationships can become your competitive advantage. Connection, empathy and understanding customers shape Dara's approach to sales.
Great sales don't have to feel sales-y. Good sales conversations create trust and strong customer experiences.
Outsourcing still requires your involvement. Handing something over doesn't mean stepping away from responsibility completely.
Outsourcing as collaboration. Shared responsibility and regular check-ins create better working relationships and results.
Every investment needs a return. Outsourcing decisions should consider the result you want, not just what you can afford.
Business owners often make the best salespeople. Dara prioritises selling, sourcing products and building relationships over tasks others can do.
How money beliefs can follow you into business. Old stories about money don't reflect your current financial capability.
Rest is part of sustainable business. Creating white space can support better thinking, creativity and long-term decision-making.
You don't need to be a perfect planner. Efficiency, prioritisation and making good decisions matter more than being highly organised.
What it takes to build a premium business. Patience, persistence and genuinely loving the game of business matter for long-term success.

💡 If this conversation resonates and you want hands-on support, you can work with Fi one-on-one or join Good Money Club, where small business owners learn how to make and manage money with clarity, confidence, and impact.

- Good Money Club (doors are open now)

Peach Weekly - Sign up for sharp, practical business thinking delivered straight to your inbox.

Say hi: hello@peachbm.com.au

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In this podcast, Money Secrets, host Fiona (Fi) Johnston, Chartered Accountant, small business advocate, and impact enthusiast, dives into the conversations we need to have about money. The secrets that once stayed behind closed doors (or on the golf course) are finally out in the open.

Fi’s mission? To get more money into the hands of good people, like you. She believes small businesses can change the world, but only if we're making money and managing it well.

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Thank you to everyone involved for bringing this podcast together. We are excited to hear from you with any questions, feedback or suggestions for future episodes that you might have. Send a Direct Message to @peach.business

If you are excited for what’s to come, please like this episode, follow the podcast and share it with your friends. We are thrilled you're here.

Check out my FREE Pricing Training you need to set your prices for profitability.

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This podcast episode was recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation and I'd like to acknowledge them as the Traditional Owners and custodians of this land and water that I live, work and play on. I'd like to pay respect to elders both past and present, and note that sovereignty has never been ceded. This always was and always will be Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Fiona Johnston
"Ooh, I'd really love to have my own retail store. I'd really love to maybe move more towards that sort of premium way of doing business." Like, your business is set up for premium, beautiful, high-quality products. What advice might you have for them about how to make that happen?

Dara
That it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. It is a long game. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna take a lot longer than you could even consider. But the, the whole lessons are in the length of how long it takes.

Money Secrets Intro
Are you a small business owner who'd love to be making more money while making positive change in the world? You're in the right place, friend. Hi, I'm Fi Johnston, a chartered accountant and money coach obsessed with small business. In The Money Secrets Podcast, I share strategies that you can use to make more money without working harder. You'll hear successful small business owners share what they've learned about money and business, and I'll help you to [00:01:00] think differently and shift your perspectives about money so you can grow your business and your impact. My mission is to get more money into the hands of good business owners like you.

Acknowledgement of Country
This podcast episode was recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, and I'd like to acknowledge them as the traditional owners and custodians of this land and water that I live, work, and play on. I'd like to pay respects to elders both past and present, and note that sovereignty has never been ceded. This always was and always will be Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land.

Fi
All right, so welcome to the Money Secrets podcast, Dara.

Dara
Hello.

Fi
Hello. Great to have you. Hi. Um, so today's guest, for all of our listeners, is the founder and creative director of Byzantine Design, a Melbourne-based boutique studio specializing in bespoke natural stone [00:02:00] architectural surfaces and highly customized design solutions. So more than a decade ago, Dara made the bold decision to leave Sydney, move to Melbourne knowing fewer than five people, and build a business from the ground up. Guided by intuition, a love of beautiful materials, and an unwavering belief in the power of relationships, she transformed a small showroom into one of Melbourne's most respected design destinations.
Trusted by leading architects, interior designers, and discerning homeowners alike. Today, Byzantine Design is known for sourcing exceptional materials from around the world, solving complex design challenges, and creating truly bespoke outcomes that go far beyond simply supplying tiles and stone. At the heart of everything she does is a simple philosophy, connection through creativity, bringing together people, materials, and ideas to create spaces with lasting meaning. What an intro, Dara. How did we [00:03:00] get here? So you now own Melbourne's most beautiful tile shop. I do. But why? How did you get here? What led you to this decision to move to Melbourne?

Dara
Well, I started in tiles in 2001- Mm-hmm ... becau- in Sydney- Yep ... which is where I'm from, because I wanted to do interior design.

Yep. And there were three options to do interior design. It was university, TAFE, and then there was a private college. Mm-hmm I didn't get into uni and TAFE- Mm-hmm ... and then the private college was too expensive. Okay. So I looked for other options. I was working in hospitality at the time- Mm-hmm ... and I just wanted more, and I was always good at interiors.

Fi
All the best people come from hospo.

Dara
Look- ... I have theories about hospitality- Yeah ... that every teenager should work in hospitality or retail- 100%, yeah ... because it sets them up for life. Yes. Working life. Learning how to work in a team, learning to start from the bottom, and being [00:04:00] the... You know, doing the shit work. Yeah. Starting doing that, and then... Anyway, we digress, but-

Fi
But the, the word hospitality to me means so much. It's like that- Mm ... customer service that exists in a hospitality space. Some people have that naturally. Maybe they grew up in a big family or they've got a cultural, you know, story as for taking care of others.
But that's what I love about hospo, is that ability- Mm ... to, like, learn how to look after other people.

Dara
Yes. Yeah. And not just, like, customers, but your teammates. Mm. And understanding that if you call in sick, other people have to do your job- Yeah ... as well. Like, there's ramifications. It's also learning to jump into something really quickly to, you know, help someone that needs...
It's seeing more than what you're doing. You've gotta see the whole picture of- Mm ... what's happening- Yeah ... and work it out. Yeah. Anyway. So hospo represents. We digress. Come- Yeah. I was working in hospo, wanted more. Mm-hmm. Saw an ad for a tile store And it just said in the ad, "An [00:05:00] interest in interior design would be advantageous."
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was back, it was in a paper- Yes ... a newspaper. I remember those. Back in the days. Yeah. Yep. Um, got the job, paid $32,000 a year. Yep. I worked five days a week. One day was a weekend. Mm-hmm. I did it for about three months, and I kinda liked it. Mm. And then we got natural stone in. Like, we started getting travertine in, and that's when, uh, my heart started to sing and I was just like, "I really love this." Yeah. Like, it's... But I also felt a bit less than- Okay ... as well, 'cause it was retail. Mm. It was... And I, you know, I did, I helped design... I worked for a group called Amber- Mm-hmm ... in Sydney. I helped design a couple of showrooms. I wanted to become a buyer, but they would never let me progress 'cause it was a franchise situation. Mm-hmm. But I had really supportive bosses, and they kinda let me do... And I'd studied bathroom design while I was doing it, and I, I di- I diverted and did a diploma of events [00:06:00] management- Mm-hmm ... full-time. Left the tile industry. Literally finished, graduated that day, and the tile shop called me up and said, "Can you come and help?" And I was like, "Sure," and I just never even went back- Yeah ... to events- Mm-hmm ... and just kept doing tiles. Left there. Work- I've worked in every facet, so I did retail, I did wholesale, I did repping, and just kinda learnt the whole business. Mm. And always thought I could do a better job than anyone I worked for.

Fi
Yeah. It sounds like the perfect kind of apprenticeship to come- Yeah ... into your own business. Mm. And so brave you, moves from Sydney to Melbourne. You know less than five people. Tell me what happens when you arrive. How long does it take until you start Byzantine?

Dara
Well, the reason I thought Melbourne was I would get pro- 'cause I started doing a bit of wholesaling on my own. Like, started Byzantine and did the bathroom designs, but would also just supply tiles for people. Mm-hmm. Somehow I ended up [00:07:00] with an opportunity to get product in Belle Magazine- Mm-hmm. Wow ... with Steve Cordony. Yep. They needed, like, 10 square meters of a stone tile to lay as the base of this editorial they were doing, and I went and picked the tiles up in my Mazda 121.
It was like- But- ... 300 kilos of tiles. Wow. And I put them, they're in the boot. My poor car was, like, so low to the ground. Sagging. Yep. And I turned up at the studio in Alexandria. We unpacked the tiles. They did this editorial, and it was beautiful. And I got a huge job from that. Mm. Like, this house in Coogee, someone had seen it.
I'd gotten a few... Like, it, and the, it all just kind of momentum happened. Mm. But every time I'd get something in Belle, it would be people from Melbourne that would contact me. Mm. Yeah. And I wasn't happy in Sydney. Mm-hmm. Like, I felt like my life wasn't progressing. Like, all my friends are married with kids, and I was like, "This is not what I want." Love Melbourne, and just had the crazy idea to move here- Mm ... and open a shop. Yeah. [00:08:00] So you moved here and opened the shop in the same kind of few months? Moved here in 2013. Mm-hmm. So worked on the website, got all the back end stuff happening, and then we moved in June. Mm-hmm. June, July. And around January, February, I started looking for a space- Wow and found somewhere on High Street- Mm-hmm ... in Prahran. Yep. I used to call it Prahran. Prahran. But, you know, I had to learn how to say it- No one knows how to say it ... 'cause, 'cause no one in... Prahran. People in Melbourne say things weird, yeah. Yeah. Prahran. Prahran. Prahran. Yep. Yeah. I d- found a space there and just built the business from there. Mm. Built a little shop. Yeah. And yeah, I look back on those photos and I'm... Like, it was so sparse and, but it was mine.

Fi
Yeah. Yeah, and that excitement that takes you through those first couple of years, like, "I have a shop and I can buy things to put in it." Yeah. "And people come in and want my advice about what to buy."

Dara
And I had no customers. Yes. Like, I would sit there [00:09:00] every day just waiting for people to find me- Yeah ... 'cause it was the early days of Instagram. Yes. I was doing everything I could, but I just k- I knew if I built it, people would come. Mm-hmm. And Melbourne is so amazing at supporting small business. Yes. Well, they were in back those days but still are, but-

Fi
I think we still are. Yeah, I think so We just need to kind of look a little harder- Yes ... to see the evidence of it.

Dara
Yeah, and I think Sydney's a very different market and different people. Mm. So I think it's, yeah, Melbourne, I'm Melbourne in my soul. Yes, me too. So- Yeah. Yeah, I just, yeah, this is my home and I love this city- Yeah
and all of it that it brings. Yeah.

Fi
Yeah, Melbourne has a vibe. It does. Yeah. I grew up at the Gold Coast and moved here when I was- Yes ... 27. Okay. Yep. But I think people just assume I've always been here- Mm ... 'cause Melbourne does suit me. Mm. Yeah. Okay, so 2013 we opened the store on High Street, Prahran, Pra- 2014 we opened.
2014. Yep. May 13th. Mm. So 12 years later you have the most [00:10:00] beautiful tile store in Melbourne. What I'm really keen to understand is how does Dara, with no customers and a beautiful store without much stock in it, how does she get to here? What are the big kind of strides that you feel or the big changes you made to the business- Mm
to get to the point where you now have customers coming in, you have architects and interior designers seeking you out? I assume they bring their clients to the store. Yep. Is this... Tell me, tell me what it looks like now. So I'm not in the same shop that I started in.

Dara
Mm-hmm. So what I was in was like a little tiny converted kind of terrace- Yep first and then I'm, was in that for- Four or five years, kinda outgrew that. Moved to another space literally the week of COVID. Okay . Yep. So we moved in, we shared a space with a furniture store, so we moved into the back of that. Yep. And that worked really well during COVID- Mm ... 'cause we could still come to work every day. Yes. The golden days of COVID. Yeah . We could work and yeah, not have [00:11:00] customers and not physical customers, but still make money. And then December 2024, we moved to our final destination. Mm-hmm, yep. And the space that I thought I probably would've moved into in year five- Yes ... not year 12- Yeah ... or 11 of the business.

Fi
But this is an interesting point, is that- Mm ... you know, I really love seeing business owners make iterative steps- Yeah ... towards where they're going. So you've started in the little- Mm ... you know, pokey terrace. You've then shared a space with another business, which I think is an amazing way of taking a next step up and building. You know, you can feed off each other, your- their customers might become your customers- Yeah ... and vice versa. And then you've moved up, you know, you've upgraded to the next level of shop. So I think a lot of people sort of assume when they go into business that you get the beautiful shop from day one, but it's actually a really big mistake to do it that way.
Mm. So yeah, I love how you've taken those really strategic steps, [00:12:00] which may at the time have been more, "I can't afford the bigger shop," but you've actually looked at it and gone, "How do we actually get to that big store in the end?" So now you're in the store that you're in now. Yeah. You love it.

Dara
We're in 150 square meters in Windsor. Beautiful. We're off High Street- Yep ... which is really lovely. Um, we've got two-hour free parking. Nice. Whole car parks, and it's, there's a park across the road. It's a different world. Mm. And it's... I love it. So it can be like a destination for people- It is ... to come. We've always have been now. Now we're a destination 12 years in.

Fi
Mm-hmm. Yeah. We have retail and trade customers. Yep. Yeah, so people who are doing their own- Yep ... DIY renovation- Yep ... or they're self, you know, managing the build. Yeah. And then you have the interior designers, the architects that are managing projects for clients and wanting your products to be in the mix.
Yep. Love it.

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Fi
What do you love so much about stone?

Dara
Oh. I wanted to be an archeologist- Yeah ... when I was a [00:14:00] kid. Yeah. Um, and I do think that that... I think stone has an energy- Yes ... and a beauty- Yes ... that you cannot copy with a printer or a, you know what I mean? Like, it's not, like there's tiles that- we get tiles that come in that are copies- Mm ... like printed versions of stone. You cannot... I'm a purist, so you can't-- It's very hard to copy that. Every, every job is unique. Every piece of stone is unique. Mm. It all has an energy. It has a vibe. Like when I travel, which is not very often, but when I do, I'm the person that touches the walls- Yes
of everything. Yes. Because I can feel the energy of the hundreds and hundreds of years of history. Mm. You know, I went to the Sistine Chapel, and I looked at the ceiling, but the floor was incredible. I love that. Everyone's looking up, and I'm like, "Oh my God, look at the floor." Look at the floor that you're all just ignoring.
Like, the hundreds of year old mosaics that are still amazing on the floor. Yes. Yeah. Like the whole... [00:15:00]
Yeah. Yeah, that sort of tactile-- It's not just the feeling of it, but the energy of the stone- Mm ... of knowing this stone has been here for millions of years. I don't know- Yeah ... exactly how it works. Well, it's all natural. It's formed under the ground. Like it's, you know, Mother Nature makes this. Mm. Like, it's incredible.

Fi
Yeah. So absolute passion and love of stone. Mm. Um, and yeah, that beauty of nature that we just, we cannot- Mm ... replicate it. You know, you could never make a fake tree and expect it to be beautiful. Yeah. You know, I mean, the expect it to be beautiful bit is the important bit.
I know there's fake plants, but they are hideous, you know?

Dara
And look, there's a time and place for the copies. Yeah. Like, even with what we do, like there's porcelain copies of st- And I get not everyone, A, can afford stone, or B, wants the maintenance. Yeah. So I totally understand that. Yes. But in my heart of hearts and my soul- Yeah
I would pick stone- Yeah ... anytime.

Fi
Yeah. So one of the things that I really love working [00:16:00] on business owners with and hearing about is how did you work out how to explain what's incredible about your product? So articulating that value proposition. So at some point, you've obviously mastered the art of becoming this destination store for both trade and retail.
Mm. So how do you explain what's great about your tiles? How did you work that out?

Dara
I don't think I ever sat down and worked that out. Mm. I think it's I think I have a natural ability. Like, I can visualize things- Mm-hmm ... and it took me ages to realize people, not everyone can. Mm. So I can see one little piece of stone and picture a whole room in it.
Yes. And not everyone... And yeah, it took me ages to realize that. I'm like, "Can't you see that?" And they're like- Mm ... "Nope." Mm. So I think that, I think I have, like, my sales process is not salesy at all. Mm-hmm. It's [00:17:00] a how do we come up with a solution? Like, what- what's the best option for your project- Mm ... your home, your client's project. And I also have a spidey sense. Mm. So people will start telling me things, and I can visualize it before they finish talking. Yeah. And that's... And I kind of, yeah.

Fi
Yeah, I love that. So it sounds like relationship building- Totally. Yeah ... and that sort of connection- Yeah ... is how you're really connecting this is what the client is looking for or hoping for- Mm and this is how I can bring that to life for them. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And so you, you didn't sit down one day and say, "I'm gonna use my spidey senses to, you know- No ... strategically do this," but that natural thing that, um, really great business owners do, which is understanding what our customers want- Mm and how to give it to them. So I love that.

Dara
And also empathy for... Like, you know, I get budgets are tight. I get that building is stressful. Like, how do we [00:18:00] take that stress away from people as well by- Yeah ... you know, getting people to trust us and understand, like, we've got you. Mm. Yeah, I love that. But, you know, somebody can have a renovation budget or a building budget or a bathroom budget, whatever it is.

Fi
Mm. And it's not necessarily that, that the budget needs to change, but that people need to work out what to prioritize in that budget. Mm. So your job is to get them to prioritize natural stone and beautiful tiles and think about, you know, what are all of the things that need to be included in this budget, and where do the tiles get to fit in there.

Dara
Yeah, and it's also tricky 'cause tiles is the first thing people look at- Yes ... and the last thing they buy. Mm, gotcha. So even in a bathroom, like there can be up to 12 trades in a bathroom- Yes ... which is a lot- Yeah ... in a small room. Mm. And a lot of the stuff you're paying for you don't see. Yeah. And that can blow out costs.
Yeah. So it's also how do we help make it look as beautiful as we can within the budget we've got. [00:19:00] Mm. Mm. And I always watch people when they're in the shop, and any time someone has an emotional reaction to something, that's where I start. Yes. Yeah. Like, if I hear a, "Oh, I love that." It's like, well, that's the starting point.
Yeah, that's so neat. And even if we can get a tiny bit of that in there to give them joy- Yes ... then I always also say a laundry splashback, like do something fun. Yeah. Because as women- Yeah, you spend a lot of time in there ... you're in laundry a lot of times. Yeah. So if you want a disco tile, put a disco tile in.
If you want some- something that makes you smile and just gives you joy- Do it

Fi
Yeah, I love that. So along this journey, you've moved from Sydney, you've come here as this bold woman looking for a new life and a new place to be. You've started your business, and not long into starting the business you had a health challenge and a, and a new diagnosis to manage.
Mm. Tell me a little bit about that.

Dara
So three months in, I flew up to Sydney, three [00:20:00] months after I opened the shop. I think it was three mon- yeah, I flew up to Sydney. I hadn't been feeling right- Mm ... beforehand. Mm-hmm. And had gone to my GP and we did all the tests and nothing had happened, and I was walking in a shopping center.
I'd flown up to Sydney for the day to go to a funeral, and I had ankle boots on and I was walking in a shopping center and I fell. Mm. Like, my foot just went out from under me. Mm-hmm. And I landed heavy. But I kept going, I just got on with the day. And by the time I got home that night, my whole side of my body was numb.
Mm. And over the next day or two it all kind of kept going, and it was all very weird. So I went back to my GP, who wanted me to get an MRI. She had suspicions on what it was but didn't say anything, and- Went with the neurologist, he told me it was stress Mm Gave me antidepressants- Oh, gosh ... which I said- Yeah
this is not stress. Like, I'm stressed, and then took six weeks, and within six weeks I'd fallen over again. [00:21:00] Mm-hmm. I'd had optic neuritis in both eyes, which is the swelling of the nerve- Wow ... the optic nerve. Mm-hmm. So, which is like looking through, when you look through smudgy sunglasses. Mm. So color, depth of color had gone, and everything, and I, within six weeks from the first appointment, finally got the MRI and was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.

Fi
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That must have come as quite a shock after being told you're stressed. You know, here's this medication.

Dara
To be fair, like, actually having the diagnosis was a huge relief, because it was like, well, this isn't all in my head. Mm. So I figure once you label it, there's a power to that- Mm ... and you can kind of go, "Right, I'm gonna do everything I can to..."
But I had to relearn how to walk. Mm. It was quite the... I had to hire staff, like, immediately. Yes Which was not in the plan. No The financial plan. Yeah. Um, I had to hire some staff to... Like, we weren't busy, so it was, it was okay, 'cause it was still three months in. [00:22:00] Mm-hmm. I mean, even before I was di- I would sit there and watch TV with an eye patch, waiting for customers to come in. Mm. 'Cause I just felt so terrible. Yeah But I showed up every day. Yeah. The only time I took time off was once I'd been in hospital, and I had a week off. That was the only time the shop was closed. Mm. But it was scary, and it was a lot. And I was here, I had my flatmate, who I knew from Sydney. We moved down here together. Mm-hmm. But I didn't have anyone else. Mm. Yeah.

Fi
Yeah. Yeah, so it made the, you know, a big life change, all of these, you know, relearning to walk. How am I gonna manage this? It sort of forced you- Mm ... into becoming an employer. No doubt there were lots of very difficult parts to that. Do you think being forced to employ early was a good thing, looking back in hindsight?

Dara
I don't know. I mean, one, yeah, I had two... One stayed with me for a while, and the other one wasn't right. Yeah, I guess I learnt a lot- Yeah ... with that. I was s- [00:23:00] Sometimes when we're forced into something- Yeah ... we actually end up, it ends up being really good in the long term. Yeah, and I think it was good, 'cause it also gave me space to get better. Mm. Which, which was something I needed- Yeah ... at the time. Yeah.

Fi
And so now, you know, all these years on, 10, 12 years on- Mm ... what advice would you have to past Dara, who's got the diagnosis, now learning, "Okay, how do I run a business with this illness?" What advice would you give to yourself now that you're sort of 10 or 12 years down the track?

Dara
Like, the flares are temporary. Yes. Like, you've gotta get through them. Mm-hmm. This isn't- Like, it isn't gonna define your life. And I think I was very willful about that in the beginning. Mm. That I didn't... Like, it became part of my story. It wasn't my full story. Everyone said to me, "Move back to Sydney." You know, d- and it's like, what am I gonna... Like, this is my dream. Yeah. Like- Yeah. I've only just started on this path. Yeah. So I had to learn how to [00:24:00] be a business person and manage a chronic illness kind of concurrently. Mm. And I think it made me a business better owner. It made me a better person as well- Mm ... because of the empathy and the, the work I've had to do on myself- Yes to g- like clear all the emotional stuff that causes the disease. That's my theory. Um- Mm-hmm ... but yeah, I think it's, like, I would say you're gonna learn to manage it. You are gonna go into remission. You will still have flares, but they are temporary, and you are gonna learn how to manage them. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, and you've become a better business owner- Yeah as a result. Mm.

Fi
Yeah. So tell me now, you have a team. You've probably hired loads of people over that time. Tell me what went right and what went wrong, and particularly the word outsourcing.

Dara
Well, I'll start with staff. Mm-hmm. Um, I've had quite a few. At the moment, it's just myself and one other- Mm-hmm ... who's been with me for almost seven years.
Love that. Yeah. We've had others come through. And [00:25:00] business, it fluctuates so much that you kind of... Keeping the two core people and then the others, they've really got to be the right fit- Yes ... and really have to have a good, not work ethic. That's probably a bit harsh to say, but- What I do is very niche. Mm.
And it's really niche information, so it's not for everyone, and those people haven't worked out. Yes. Yeah. And, and that's a great thing to think about when- Mm ... you're employing people is not everybody's gonna stay with you for a long time. No. And that's a, that's not a bad thing. Yeah. And as your business changes, like I'm sure that your team member now would say it's a completely different business now- Totally. Yeah ... from seven years ago, and not everybody wants to go through the change of a business. No. You know, as businesses grow, they tend to need to be professionalized to some degree, commercialized to some degree, [00:26:00] and so more systems, more processes- Mm ... more kind of rules, in inverted commas, and not everybody enjoys that kind of process, whereas some people love working in a business that has some structure around them.
Yeah. It's... Yeah, and it's very much you've gotta be able to pivot and do, like one minute you're serving customers, the next minute you're cleaning, you know, the kitchen, next minute... Like, you've r- like when you work in a small business, you've gotta be able to be a jack of lots of trades. Yes, absolutely.
Yeah. And understand that it's not just... Like, we have a showroom to upkeep, we have sales to do. Like, it's a lot. Mm-hmm.

Fi
Mm. Yeah. So you've had many staff. Some have worked out, some haven't. Mm. You've got one long-termer, which is awesome. Yeah. Um, tell me what other skills or services did you bring into your business? Or have you literally done everything yourself for the last 12 years? Oh, no.

Dara
No, I haven't. Um, my biggest one with outsourcing was I [00:27:00] had the same accountant for, like, 11 years. Yes. And every year around tax time, I'd get this little niggle of like, "I don't know if this is the right fit." Mm-hmm. But it- once, once a year. And you just stay- Like, there was no- ... because it's easier to stay ... correct. Yeah. And for three or four years, and then last year it all came to a head. Mm-hmm. And it cost me a lot of money. Let's just put it that way. Got it. It was not pleasant. Um, I have a new accountant now who's awesome- Mm-hmm ... um, who I have a meeting with every month.
Like these other guys, like I'd only hear from them at tax time- Yes ... and BAS time. Mm-hmm. And it was literally just, "Here's the form." Oh, and if I would, needed to talk to them or wanted some extra, "We'll send you a proposal." Right. It's like... And I was paying them a lot of money. Yeah. And I just wish I had... And I ha- see, in my mind, I had outsourced it. Mm. Yeah. And I had always been... I have this story that I'm bad with money- Mm-hmm ... from when I was a kid. Mm-hmm. [00:28:00] So I was-

Fi
Do you still believe that? I have moments. Yeah. Yeah. I- Yeah, I give myself a talking to and kind of go, "You run a business that turns over a million a year. Like, you've done all right." Mm. Like, you've worked it out.

Dara
Yeah. The evidence would suggest that- Yes. ... you're- The evidence ... 12 years into business. Yeah. I'm pretty sure you're good with money, babe. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I mean, there's no s- Like, everything I have goes into the business. I don't... I bought my first house... Like, I'm 51 now. I bought my hou- first house at 38- 48.

Fi
Awesome. Congratulations.

Dara
Thank you. Yeah. It was a big, huge deal to give myself the safety. Mm. Uh, like, I mean, I've moved in 30 houses in my- Yeah ... lifetime, so- Giving myself that safety and security, and also when you're helping people all day do their houses- Mm ... and you don't have your own- Yes ... it's a, there's a shame thing going with that.

Fi
Yeah. Isn't it amazing, though, how, you know, you're 51 and you're still thinking back to these [00:29:00] thoughts from when you're a child about being- Totally ... poor with money. Yeah. And that's what happens with humans. Mm. We have these thoughts that we've thought- Mm ... so many times that they become beliefs, and we think they're true.
Totally. But actually they're just sentences that walk through our mind. Yep. Yeah. And you've gotta scratch the record. Yeah. Like, it's a... Yeah, and it's, it's such a damaging thing. But until you realize that it's happening- Yeah ... and you've got the power to change it.

Dara
Mm. I do still have moments, and I think I tie myself and my self-worth to the business. So if the business isn't doing well, I'm really hard on myself. Yes. When a lot of the times it's the economy- Yeah ... or it's things that are completely outside of my control. Yeah. Yes, that's a very common thing. Mm. A lot of people tie the size of their bank account to the size of their self-esteem. Mm. And actually they're two completely different things, but it's very difficult to untangle them, especially when you're running a business on your own. Yes, you have a team, but it's, you're a solo business [00:30:00] owner. Mm. So all of the decisions land with you, all of the decisions, both good and bad, sit with you. Yeah. And you know, so everything that you've done for the last 12 years is how you got here. Yeah. And so then if things don't feel like they're going well, it's easy to look back and say, "Where did I fuck up here?" Yeah, what have I done wrong? What have I done? What's, what have I done? It's not... Yeah. And I'm also a single woman- Yeah ... and have been single for a very long time, with a chronic health thing and running a business. Yeah. Like, it's a lot. Yeah. There's a lot of pressure. I've gotten a lot better about it, though. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. To myself, and I learned to take breaks and I... Yeah. You know, if I need to sit on the lounge for a day and watch television and rest, I do. Yeah. I don't beat myself up about it anymore.

Fi
Yeah, rest is productive. Yeah. I mean, not, it doesn't have to be productive- Mm ... but it actually is. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, one of the things that business owners who are doing it the smart way do differently from businesses that are just on the hamster wheel- Mm
is they rest. [00:31:00] Yeah. And they have white space in their calendar. Yeah. And they have time to actually think and be creative and, you know, get out of the day-to-day, go and have a coffee at a cafe- Mm ... and sit and just observe. Yeah. You know, I think that's where, you know, in my opinion, that's what businesses that are really sustainable and long-term thinking- Mm that's what they do differently.

Dara
Yeah. And I go to the gallery, I do... You know, I walk my dog. I... You know, it's- I do things and I try and switch off, and I'm so much better than I was when I first started. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have to be. You just learn the, the skills.

Fi
Yeah. Yeah. Mm. So in this time of you've had the accountant for a really long time, that ended up biting you in the bum.
Got a new accountant now. It's very expensive, yeah. And I think the role of the accountant is changing a lot as well- Mm ... for small business, so, um, it makes sense that a lot of small business owners are now looking for more from their accountant. But what else did you outsource? Who else was part of the sort of journey, and what has [00:32:00] that taught you?

Dara
Well, even with marketing, like, I have outsourced marketing to various people. Mm-hmm. And, and it's my own fault, but when I think outsource, I kinda go, "Well, I've handed it- Yeah ... to you." Yeah. I'm paying you for that service, but I wasn't checking in. Mm. Which is on me. Yes. 100% on me but, you know, when you are managing all these things, you kind of trust that, "Well, I'm handing you money in return for your services." And not until the person's gone or the relationship's over do you then start going through everything forensically and go, "Wow, what were you doing?"

Fi
Mm. Like, yeah. So how do you outsource things now? Because what you're explaining is very common. Mm. We find a great service provider. They woo us. Totally. It all feels amazing, and it's like, "Great, you're taking this off my plate now. Goodbye, I'll see you in six [00:33:00] months." Yeah. So what are you... What would you do differently when you're outsourcing now?

Dara
Well, now I'm renaming it- Mm. to collaborating.

Fi
Love it.

Dara
Yes. 'Cause then it's on me and them. Yeah. Shared responsibility. I've just changed the word, and I'm... Which has changed my mindset, my, the way I think about it. Mm-hmm. So it's a, you know, weekly check-ins, or, you know, month- whatever. You know, there's a constant check-in, and I am, um, also wanna check the work.

Fi
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, this is something that's, it's just really hard to outsource. This is what I'm- Mm ... trying to say. Mm. It's actually much harder to delegate and outsource than we pretend it is. Yeah. And I think people come... So I'm not from a corporate background. Neither. You're not either. Never worked in a corporate anything.
Mm. But even if you have worked in a corporate background and you've managed a large team before, it is not the same when you are managing team members or contractors in your business, because you're responsible not only for the work that they do, but you also have to [00:34:00] pay their bill. Yes. And that is a very different position from managing somebody but having no accountability or responsibility for their pay packet.
Mm. So I think this skill of delegating and finding the right people that can help your business and actually get a return. Like, let's be frank, if you're paying somebody to do your marketing or do your tax return or whatever it is, there needs to be a return. Yeah. You're not just giving them the money so that you no longer have to do it.
Mm. Like, that's one reason to, "Okay, this isn't my special source, so I wanna find somebody who is amazing at this."

Dara
Yeah. But there needs to be a return as well. Recently I, um, had a marketing person who's no longer with us. So I then pulled everything in, went through everything myself- Mm ... and kind of sat down and gave myself a long talking to, and kind of said, "Right, well-" What am I best doing?
Yeah. And the answer to that is I'm best sale- selling. Yes, agreed. I'm best on the floor. I'm best finding new [00:35:00] product. I'm best building the relationships. Touching stone. Yeah, touching stone. Exactly. Spidey sense. Yeah. Yeah. Chief stone toucher. Yeah. What I'm not good at or want to do is Instagram. Yeah. Is marketing.
Mm-hmm. Is I'm good at the ideas, but the execution, I don't really... It's not my forte. Mm. And it takes so much of my time away from selling. If I don't sell, I don't pay my bills. Yes. Yeah. And that's the bit I love anyway. Mm. So why... Like, I've really, I really had to kind of go inwards and go, "Okay, well, what am I best doing?"
Yeah. Because my day, we open at 9:00 and we close at 4:00. I have very little control over what happens between 9:00 and 4:00. Yes. Like, I can't go to meet... Like, I can't do lot- daytime meet. Like, it's all the customer comes in, the phone call comes in, the email comes in, there's a delivery problem, there's a, you know- So it's, I've gotta be there when I'm in the shop, I'm- I'm [00:36:00] present there.

Fi
Yeah. Yeah, you're locked in. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I think you've reached the exact point that- that I would've imagined, which is that- Mm ... business owners make the best salespeople. Yeah. So the things that we need to do, the things that we can't outsource or delegate is being the person responsible for bringing money into the business.
Mm. And there's other things that nobody else can do, like being on this podcast. You can't sub somebody in- No ... for that. You can't sub somebody in to be in a photo or be on video or those sorts of things. Mm. But almost everything else in your business can be outsourced or delegated. Yeah. It's just a matter of understanding where do all of these people and skills sit, what are the things that I'm doing, and if I'm outsourcing this marketing, what's the return that I'm getting?
And what's the budget, like your, you know, is it can I afford it- Yeah ... as well? Yeah. And can I afford it and what is my return- Mm ... going to be? Yeah. I think a lot of business owners consider can I afford it, but they don't think about the other side, which [00:37:00] is what result do I want here? Totally, yeah. You know, yes, this is gonna cost me $2,000 a month and I think I can manage that, but if we're thinking about it just can we afford that to come out of our bank, there's no point in doing it if it's not actually gonna change anything. Yeah. So we wanna say, cool, if I'm investing 2,000 a month over the next six months, that's $12,000, what additional revenue would I like to be seeing as a result of that? Yeah. And is that gonna come from being able to increase my price? Is it about increasing the volume of sales? Is it about being in different markets, being made aware, you know, um- Yeah your brand being spoken about in different circles? So there- there does actually need to be some kind of pathway to bringing more in than you're spending- Yes ... on the thing. Mm. Yeah. Dara, have you had any great advice from coaches, strategists, advisors along the 12 years that you think is worth sharing?

Dara
Look, I've worked [00:38:00] with lots of coaches- Yeah ... um, over, for different things. Mm-hmm. Life coaching, business coaching. Well, yeah, I've worked with lots. Mm. I've invested a lot into it. And do you feel that there's been a good return on that overall? Mostly, yes. Yes. Yeah. More often than not. Yes, I think so. Okay.
Yeah, I think it's finding the right people- Mm ... and the right person comes at the right time- Mm ... as well. And I think 'cause I've had all the health stuff as well, there's been stuff within that, and there's also had to be a lot of acceptance with the health stuff. Mm. An acceptance of what I'm capable of- Yes
with my health and a business. Yeah. Yeah, and what support I need around me, and whether that support comes in the form of health and emotional support- Mm ... it's physical support on the floor. Mm. It's help at home with doing physical things.

Fi
Yeah. Like I think, um, business owners can get just as big a return from getting support outside of the business- Yes
as inside. Yep. [00:39:00] Yeah. So lots of coaching, which I love to hear. Mm. Um, some businesses go 20 years before they get any advice from anyone other than, you know- I know I love a good coaching session. Yeah. So yeah, does anything sort of stand out as really great advice or something that was like, "Wow, that really changed how I approach my business thinking about this particular strategy or kind of insight"?

Dara
I think it's more what I've learned that I'm not good at. Mm. Mm-hmm. I'm not a great planner. Mm-hmm. Like I'm not a great forward planner. Like I can't- Yeah, I can't plan three months ahead. Yep. I can't even plan a week ahead. Yeah. Like, it's... I'm a in the moment. Mm-hmm. I know what I know. I know I'm kind of crea- I guess it's the creative in me.
Mm-hmm. It's... Yeah, I, like, we... I used to went with one business coach, and he'd do, like, we'd do, like, a three-month plan. Mm-hmm. And I just, I just don't look back at that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not that kinda [00:40:00] gal. Yeah, yeah. I'm good at some things- But something about the conversation- Yeah ... to build that three-month plan was still helpful. Yes. And it was still getting into your synapses- Yes ... just maybe in a, in a different way. Yeah.

Fi
Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I have, um, I'm not really a planner either, at least not in the sense of what you think of as a planner. Mm-hmm. Um, I like the idea of a thread or something that I'm kind of following. A brain dump. Yeah. I do brain dumps. Yeah, um- And I do Post-it Notes. But I also think that there's this idea that only really organized people make great business owners, and it's absolutely untrue. Uh, being organized does not equate to being successful. No. I, I agree. Mm-hmm. I think efficiency's probably a bit, a better skill.

Dara
Yeah, yeah, being able to be effective- Mm-hmm ... in the moment. Yeah. So actually prioritizing the right things- Making decisions quickly ... putting your time into the right things. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Hmm. So what's next for your business?

Dara
We've got some really [00:41:00] fun new products coming out. We're really heading into customization.
Yep. So we're wo- now working with a tapware company that's made in Melbourne- Great ... with 43 different colors- Wow ... including, like, pinks and greens and yellows, so we can really... We also can do customize any of the stone products. Wow. Yeah. On my big dreams list is a book. Mm-hmm. I'd like a book. Yes. And- I can see it- Yep
in my mind. Yes. All the beautiful- So- ... stones- And I wanna design- ... photos of you touching stone. Yes. We love it. And just like an influencer walking through- Yeah. ... touching it. Um, and I'm gonna start designing my own ranges. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Awesome. So in turn, like, your own branded range that sits inside your business.
Yeah, and I can also wholesale to other businesses. Yeah. Yep. Love it. They're my big dreams.

Fi
Okay. And to anybody who's listening to this podcast and may be thinking, "Oh, I'd really love to have my own retail store," or, "I'd [00:42:00] really love to maybe move more towards that sort of premium way of doing business," like, your business is set up for premium, beautiful, high-quality products.
What advice might you have for them about how to make that happen?

Dara
That it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. It is a long game. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna take a lot longer than you could even consider. Yeah. But the whole lessons are in the length of how long it takes. And it m- yeah, it's... Yeah, you've gotta be prepared that it's not gonna be a one or two-year thing, and then you can flip it.
Yeah. Gotcha. So business takes longer than you think. Always. But it's worth it? Absolutely. Awesome. You've gotta be built for it, though.

Fi
Mm. Yeah. What does built for business mean to you?

Dara
You've just gotta love the game. And not a game as in like a competitive, but it is a game of bus- Like, it's you're doing multiple things at once.[00:43:00]
Hold... Like, all the tabs are open in your head, but you've gotta come up with the new ideas and also do the day-to-day.

Fi
Yeah. Yeah, managing the big and the small at the same time. Yep. Love it. Thank you. Sorry I didn't tell you I was recording. That's okay. Well- I f- figured you were. Dara, it's been such a treat having you on the podcast today. Oh, it's been fun. I love thinking about you with your stone and your tiles, and these beautiful taps and tiles and terrazzo, and all of the beautiful terracotta. All these beautiful- Mm ... tiles going out into the homes of Melbourne. And I also love that you are a business owner who is prepared to tell us that she is a million-dollar business owner. She's a woman living- Yes, she is. You. She's a woman living with a chronic illness- Mm ... who's solo in life. Um, what's your dog's name?

Dara
Fergus.

Fi
Hey, Fergus. Shout out to Fergus. So yeah, thank you for sharing- He says hi. Yep. Hey. Woof woof. Thank you for sharing that with us. And yeah, no doubt people- Aw ... are gonna get a lot out of this episode, so.

Dara
Thank you for the opportunity to chat about [00:44:00] my business.

Fi
My pleasure. Thanks, Dara. Thank you

Outro
Thank you so much for listening right up to the end. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Money Secrets, where we talk about the money secrets of successful small business owners. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love it if you'd subscribe to the podcast, but leave us a review or share this episode with one of your friends.
I hope you learned something. I hope you got a new perspective, and I really hope you enjoyed the listening experience

Retail done right, with Dara Shashoua of Byzantine Design (EP#81)

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