[00:00:00] Kate Toon
Really just being on your money, not putting in a cupboard and going, I'll work it out later. You look at every fricking day. I, I should be able to ask you right now what's in your bank account. Yes. Every single one of them. All your profit first, and you should have a vague idea. I should be able to ask you how much you spend on XA month and you should know. Mm-hmm. For me, it doesn't matter if you're the best copywriter or the most amazing speaker or whatever, if you don't know your money, you don't know nothing and you won't provide the long term.
Intro
If we want to be able to tip the scales towards the favor of marginalized people, we need to understand the secrets to making money in small business.
The more we talk about money and the secret. That usually stay at the golf club, the more likely we are to be able to make money. My mission is to get more money into the hands of good people, specifically good business people like you. This is Money Secrets, the place to learn about the money secrets of successful small business owners. Let's go. [00:01:00]
Acknowledgement of Country
This podcast episode was recorded on the lands of the Wie people of the KO nation, and I'd like to acknowledge them as the traditional owners and custodians of this land and water that I live, work, and play on. I'd like to pay respects to elders both past and present, and notes that sovereignty has never been seeded.
This always was and always will be. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land.
Fi Johnston
Thank you so much for joining me on the Money Secrets podcast. Kate, say hello.
Kate Toon
Hello.
Fi
Love it. So you are listening to the Voice of Kate Tune. I'm sure you know what her face looks like and who she is, but I'm gonna do a little introduction of her just in case. So I love that Kate has written that she never feels like she's fit in to the conventional picture.
Of a successful businesswoman. Maybe we can unpack that later. Kate, she's a bit scruffy, [00:02:00] she's sarcastic, and she's never written a business plan, but her misfit approach to business has served her well. She loves helping other humans create success on their own terms. And in a more practical sense, Kate Tune is an award-winning business mentor and digital marketing coach. She's a down to earth human on a mission to demystify the realities of running a successful online business. Welcome to the podcast, Kate.
Kate
It's lovely to be here.
Fi
It's so lovely to have you here. I actually had a look back into my emails to try to work out when it was that we first crossed paths, and I have an exact date, which was the 19th of February, 2020.
Kate
Wow.
Fi
That was a pretty strange time in the world.
Kate
It was. I thought it was earlier than that, but you were recommended to me by, uh, my friend Sarah Spence and. You, you, gosh, you're fundamental. Am I allowed to just toot your horn for a little bit?
Fi
Oh no, please don't. Okay. I'll [00:03:00] stop immediately. Yeah, so I remember at that point I'd incorporated into a company, I think a couple of years previously.
I had my zero. I was doing the things. But I didn't really have a real picture of how much money was mine, how proper I was, anything like that. I think I tried to do Profit first. I can't even, I dunno if you helped me, you were doing Profit first, but it wasn't badly answering all of your questions. It was not answering all my own questions.And I remember you did for me what it felt like was you put together a report card for me. Mm. And you kind of explained my business money back to me. Like you interpreted all the data and then explained it back to me in a really palatable way. But the thing for me was, it was the first time that anyone had said I was doing a good job that actually understood it. I remember you gave me a real bottom part and you said, you're doing really well, Kate. And I was like, am I? Because I had no comparison and I didn't know. It was a really beautiful moment.
Fi
Well, it was a pleasure to do that for you and yes, you were and are doing very well in [00:04:00] your business. I do find it curious and disappointing that people aren't telling their clients they're doing a great job.
All the financial people out there looking at people's books and bank accounts should be giving more pats on the bum. Please.
Kate
I know I've got a beau, a wonderful accountant now called Bruce who does. Does say that has a lot of faith in me. He's really kind. But back then, no, it was very much just me struggling on and you know, my accountant was more of like an end of your police person rather than a business friend partner, which I think you really, really need, especially if you're not hugely confident with your fin financial literacy.
Fi
Absolutely. Let's take a little step back. So you've been in business since 2009. So we are both veterans of the small business landscape. Tell me why you've started your business and what is the kind of impact or the overarching idea that you are trying to put into the world?
Kate
I think I started my business out of necessity.I was working full-time in ad agencies and uh, I got pregnant, which was a [00:05:00] surprise 'cause we didn't think we could have kids.
Fi
Mm. Congrats.
Kate
Yeah, I know it was, I was, I was chuffed. He's now 16 and a bit of a lump.
Fi
Uh, but I feel Yep. Most 16 year olds are.
Kate
Yeah, they are. So yeah, it was, it was necessity. I left at that job and when I was five months pregnant and I needed to not replace my income to any degree, but just make some money. Mm-hmm. My partner had his own business and had one client. Mm. So it was really on me. I've always been the breadwinner, which is not fun, to be honest. My goals back then were literally to make money and try and fit it in some way around my child. Over the years, money has still been very important to me.
I've had a lot of fear about the future and being eaten by cats and my line is, my line is always, I don't even have a cat.
Fi
I was gonna say, do you have a cat that's going to eat you?
Kate
No. It'll be someone else's cat, which is even more humiliating I think. So just prowling looking for, you know, middle-aged women to chew on.
So, you know, a lot of fear about retirement an old [00:06:00] age. Mm-hmm. And then look, over the years it's, it's money's still there. It's still a nagging fear, doubt. But I guess now these days, I really enjoy the creativity of my business. I enjoy the flexibility. I run a book shop, I speak at events, I work in my little office. I've got a lot of variety, a lot of choices, choice. I think my business gives me a lot of choice. That's why I like it now. And in terms of impacts on the world, oh, I don't, unfortunately. People are very disappointed to me when I say I don't have a big why. I don't really, I like helping people. I like being free and funny and being able to say what I want. I don't have a mission statement particularly. Sorry.
Fi
I think you do have a why.
Kate
Oh, do I? Yeah. Tell me I what my why is please not someone tell me what my why is.
Fi
I mean, look, you are mentoring hundreds of business owners every single day to create better marketing and better businesses. Yeah. You are one of the most prolific SEO trainers and copywriters in Australia. [00:07:00] So clearly you are driven by creating success and helping small business owners to get found. Yeah. Is that not enough of a mission?
Kate
Mm, I dunno. Maybe it is. I don't know. I just don't think of it as a mission. I just think of it as what kind of what I do day to day. I guess I just don't have a lofty. External view of it. I'm just like, I just turn up.
Fi
Mm. So why do you keep going on the days that it's hard?
Kate
I do think I enjoy the process, not the destination like I do enjoy like sitting and typing and making little graphics and fiddling around. It's far too much of an existential question to ask me. Uh, why do I keep going?
Because I'm a little girl that wants to be loved because I want pat on the bottom because I want my A plus. 'cause I want known and loved. Yes. Part of the deep
Fi
don't we all?
Kate
Yeah, exactly. So other than my deep trauma, I keep going 'cause I enjoy it. Mm. I I have a laugh, you know, and that's enough for me, you know?
So building the kind of business empire like yours hasn't come easily. No. But you keep going because you are driven [00:08:00] by perhaps being the best version of yourself that you can be. I think that's it. And also really enjoying it. I do really enjoy it. I mean, of course I'm not, I don't think I believe in the, you know, if you love what you do, you'll never work at day in your life.
I, I've never vomit, seen nonsense,
Fi
vomit.
Kate
Yeah. But genuinely I do enjoy what I do, you know, some days more than others, but yeah, a lot of the time, very, very much. Mm. It's like that whole thing of would you do it even if it didn't make you money? Probably I would. You know, people are like, when will you retire?
And I'm like, I'm not sure I really want to, do You know what I mean?
Fi
I love it. So self-driven, very motivated and willing to take risks. I would say too, as someone observes you. You are not just puttering away at the easy stuff, you are taking big risks. Tell me a bit about that.
Kate
Yeah, I dunno why I do that.
There's a real vase in me between today, me and yesterday. Me, you know, when I'm good, I'm very, very good. And when I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm terrible. And when I'm good, I have big ideas. Like I'll launch a conference, just talked about how [00:09:00] much fun events are. I will write a book. I will buy a bookshop. I will speak in New York. Then today me has to do the thing that yesterday me made the commitment to do. But to me today, me's a completely different person who has self doubt and is tired and whatever. So I'm in this horrible dichotomy of Jekyll and Hyde, uh, of my business. Uh, and I ride the highs and then suffer the lows. But why do I do it, I guess? 'cause I, I don't know, like I enjoy it for, while I enjoy it, and then I don't. So, you know, I, I, I was talking to you before we started about, you know, letting go of things as well. First start running events. It's a lot of fun and it's, it feels exciting, whatever. And then once you've done it a couple of times, you're like, this is actually not fun at all.
I do not enjoy it. Yeah. Why have I committed to this? Stop it. I'm about to run a retreat tomorrow. I've said to my team if. At the end of the retreat, I'm gonna had the best time. I'm gonna say, let's do this again next year. If I do rugby, tackle me to the floor, shove a sock in my mouth [00:10:00] 'cause we are not doing it again. So it's, for me, it's just this weird ride of I, I feel on top of the world and I can do anything. And here, let's do it. Why not? Hey, and next day I am like, what have I. Great way to live. Yes, great way to live. Fiona.
Fi
I, I resonate so much with what you just said. Our businesses are on very different scales, but very similar kinds of ups and downs in my mood and just in my life.
Kate
Yes.
Fi
It's funny, the podcast episode I released last week was about this idea that we need to be naive at the start of a project. Otherwise we'd never do anything.
Kate
a hundred percent agree. Like, you know, buying the bookshop. I did a tiny bit of due diligence and it was appalling. Like the financials were appalling, the prospects were appalling. Reputation was in the toilet, the shop was a tip. And then a day later I bought it. So all the signs said no. And I just went, ah, not to swear, but F it. Let's give it a pop. Yes. More recently, I was going to sell a part of my business and the [00:11:00] person who was gonna buy it did a heap of due diligence and consulted everybody and got a lot of good advice.
Mm. And then based on that advice, decided not to buy it.
Fi
Oh, damn.
Kate
And I, and I was like, that's such a shame 'cause you can't do it. You know, you can, doesn't matter. Even if it's like, it's like buying a, a derelict house. Some people wanna buy it ready to go and some people wanna build something up. Mm. And often the decision is whether they really feel confident that they can do it.
And I have this considering I'm the most. Insecure, anxiety person in the world, I have a sort of inner confidence that it will all be all right. Yeah. It's like that optimism just kind of shines through. Yeah. Weird. 'cause I'm, I'm so bleak, but I just sort of think I'll, I'll give it a go. How hard can it be?
Fi
What we don't know won't hurt us. Except in the future.
Kate
Yeah. That naivety. That naivety, but naivety is important and bound this enthusiasm and being like a happy Labrador and bounding towards the project. Yes. I think there's far too many sort of cynical, you know, I don't wanna [00:12:00] just be negative about another type of dog, but cynical people who look back and go, well, it's probably not gonna work, and therefore they never do anything.
Fi
Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, doing things is hard and if we knew how hard it was gonna be, we probably wouldn't do them. But also we should still do them.
Kate
Yes. And I really think the world needs our creative input, needs doers. You know, there's plenty of people doing booger roll. It's gotta have a few people who make the effort.
Fi
I love how you say booger. I can't do your accent. I just murdered it. But, um, I like how you do it. So let's talk about, or let, let's go to the sort of foundations of money and talk about financial literacy. So you've had your business a long time, might I say you are running a very successful business.
You have been in the seven figures, at least at some point, and you are earning good money.
Kate
So I've had my high. Um, so yes, I pushed up to, um, over a million dollars [00:13:00] revenue. That's always, we were talking about revenue and then I pulled back down because the effort it took for me. 'cause although I sound like I have an empire, it really is just me.
Mm. And then I, I, you know, some contractors working some two hours a week, some four, some, you know, 15 is not, and that's it. There's not heaps of people, just me. And the effort to make a million was just too much. Yeah. Even though a lot of my business is passive, and even though my net profit is. Amazing.
Mm-hmm. I just couldn't be bothered. So I bought it, started to bring it down, and then I've hovered around a million for a bit and now I'm way lower 'cause the bookshop, although it makes a lot of money, so I think we made about 450,000 in the bookshop last year. The profit is zero. And I don't really care about revenue.
I only care about profit. You know, there's so many business owners who are making a million dollars and paying themselves 60 grand
Fi
or nothing.
Kate
Yeah. Yeah. I'd rather just stand 70 grand than pay myself 60. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Why go to all that effort? So. No, I'm not a fabulously successful seven figure entrepreneur anymore. Mm-hmm. Um, and that was by [00:14:00] choice and also by industry. You know, that things have changed in my industry. I'm older, I'm 50 51 now. I don't have the jo I used to have and I just wanna lie around a bit more. So, yeah,
Fi
I love that. So you got to seven figures and you've talked a lot about that. Sort of summit syndrome in the past too.
Yes. About climbing, climbing, climbing, and then getting to the de destination and looking around and going, oh, is that it? So you've made the conscious decision to say, actually, I'm a lot happier down at this level and I'm making the profit I want to, I've got the team around me that supports me. So how are you making those financial decisions? What does it look like day to day? Are you still using Profit First? How often are you in your Zero? I wanna understand how you are kind of conceptualizing these big decisions.
Kate
So these days, you know, I am implementing Profit first. I have a much better handle of my figures. So all the money is like divided up [00:15:00] into pots.
I'm not as religious as I used to be about, so I can actually not divide it into pots and still be fairly confident, you know, so I'm in zero. More than I should be. My bookkeeper tells me to get out, so I'm in there every day. I'm looking at my profit and loss. Mm. I have a, a budget for the year. So every month we look at that.
I'm constant, I mean, I'm on the money. Money's the first thing I do in the morning. It's the last thing at night. I'm also looking at my personal finances and any investments and whatever. Mm-hmm. So I do think about it a lot, probably too much. And the big question I have at the moment is I did have a financial advisor briefly, but I felt it was costing too much money and they gave me this figure.
I need to make to be comfortable in my old age. And it was an, it was a really unobtainable figure. I'm happy to share it with you if you want. And, um, I'm like, God, when is enough gonna be enough? What kind of lifestyle do I wanna have that therefore requires this amount of income? When can I stop? Not that I wanna stop.
But I want to be able to stop if I want to.
Fi
Yes. To have the choice.
Kate
Yeah.
Fi
Yeah,[00:16:00] That's a whole, it's a whole concept around that. I think it's called Fire something. Fire and, and the other ones independence. Retire early.
Kate
Yeah. Like financial something. Retire early. Retire early. And then the other one's yolo.
The ones, you know, and I, I'm constantly between the two. I don't wanna retire early though. I just wanna keep the walls from the door, and it's like, how much door do I need to have and how many wolves are there, which I can't quite equate. So the, the financial advisor told me that you need to have two and a half million dollars.
Fi
Jesus Christ.
Kate
In assets. Oh, above and beyond your home. So you need to own your own home and have that. At 65 to have a comfortable retirement. I'm like, mate, what am I doing with that money? So what was his definition of a comfortable retirement? I dunno, am I buying a Tesla every year? I mean, seriously. I barely go out.
I have a coffee every day. Mm. And I do have avocado toast and I'm not gonna stop. But seriously, what kind? I don't have that life now. Do you know what I mean? So I've, I've decided that that's nonsense. But I [00:17:00] guess that's a European trip once a year. It's those people who can do the Antarctic cruise that cost 40 grand. It's that, I'm not sure I want to do that. So it's a hard one though, isn't it?
Fi
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. So you've taken advice, you're in Zero a lot. You are managing profit first yourself. Mm-hmm. You've got a bookkeeper and a great accountant, Bruce. You've had a financial advisor and yeah, agree. A lot of financial learning comes from the doing.
Like you've been doing this for 16 years. Yeah. So you are learning a lot as you are going.
Kate
Yeah. Yeah. And you were one of the first steps in that, like having that session and looking at figures in much more of a. And the profit first thing. Those are my two foundations. So I can't remember the name of the lady who runs the profit first here in Australia.
Fi
Uh, Laura El Klassy.
Kate
Yeah, Laura El Klassy. So she was really amazing for me in, in those early days as well. And yes, now I do do it myself. It's a kind of non-traditional profit first method, but I think it's just looking your numbers every day, being close to 'em, not being frightened of them, but not just looking at 'em and [00:18:00] going, oh, okay. But looking at 'em and going, wow, okay. I've spent that much on that. Why have I, let me have a look. Let me tweak, what Can I cut back? Oh, I like that subscription. I'm paying for it monthly, but I've used it for M Maybe I'll move to annual. Yeah, so constantly tweaking and fiddling.
Fi
yes.
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Kate
But also not [00:19:00] looking at false economies recently. This is boring, but I'm gonna tell you, I was looking at my email platform and it's so expensive.
It's us. It was gonna be a huge amount for the year. We debated moving off that platform to another one. 'cause the subscription fee was lower, but the cost of the effort to move it over was huge. And so the economy wasn't really there for the effort and the stress of it. So I just left it, you know? Yeah.
Fi
Unfortunately, I think that's what tech companies know is happening. Yeah. And they know that the cost to move platforms is huge. It's either time or money.
Kate
Exactly.
Fi
It's kind of how they strap us in.
Kate
Yeah. And that's why I think it's so important. Complete. Aside, but aside not to go on any, all in one platforms.
Fi
Yeah, no, definitely. So tell me about, you know, you started as a copywriter, you moved towards becoming an SEO [00:20:00] copywriter and training.
Mm-hmm. Now you have all these sort of, uh, digital offers or ad pips as you call them. I do. So tell me about that. Where did it all start and what does it look like now?
Kate
Oh, yeah. I started as a copywriter when my son was born, and you know, that first year probably made about 50, 60 grand, which wasn't bad.
It was about year three when I realized that that was gonna be sustainable. Mm-hmm. Then I was heading towards the sort of. 200 thousands a a year and that was capacity. I was as many hours as I could work that was as high an hourly rate or a project rate as I could charge.
Fi
And with a one young one to look after too.
Kate
And with a young one with a 4-year-old.
But I do think it was, you know, that he was starting to go to school and it was a huge change. When they go to school, it's just a mental shift. So when he was about four or five, I thought, wouldn't it be good to kind of do some workshops and some live teaching? Did a couple of those. But then thought, why don't I turn it into a course? And back then, and we were talking in 2014, it wasn't durga. A lot of people didn't have it. Mine was the first female led technical SEO course in the [00:21:00] world.
Fi
Woo. I love that.
Kate
I know. And it was, you know, I didn't really know what I was doing and it was very hard because I was trying to keep the copywriting business going.
So I started that. Then I started a membership for copywriters. Ran those for a couple of years, and it took three years. For me to be able to stop doing any service based things and just focus on that. So by about 2018, I did have no clients anymore.
Fi
How did you manage that transition?
Kate
Very slowly and,
Fi
yeah, because a lot of people get really stuck there.
Kate
Yeah. Just poorly really.
fI
Okay.
Kate
Um, you know, I had a. I was, you know, I had a, a figure that I wanted to earn each month. I think back then it was like something like 15 KA month and one half of it was coming from copywriting. And then where it got closer to all of it coming from. The ad pips, I could wind that down.
So I had a set figure I wanted to get to, and I didn't let the copywriting go until I'd got to it. The hard thing for me though, was I was making 80% of my money on three days a year, the three launch days. Oh, it's a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure. So then I wanted [00:22:00] to move to recurring income, so I set up the Clever Copywriting score, which was monthly payments.
Then I set up the Digital marketing Collective, which was monthly payments. And then all the other little bits that come with it, with the podcast is sponsorship. I have affiliate deals with various people. I get sponsored by corporates. I speak at events, I write books. So there's always little trickles of money coming in from multiple sources. And it just took a long time. I mean that, but we're talking 10 years since I started doing it. Didn't have all of that. These days I've closed down the Clever Copywriting School. I'm running the last round of recipe.
Fi
So will it be 33? Will that be the last one?
Kate
And 32 launches I've done of that 10 years.
Fi
Oh, lordy.
Kate
That will be the 32nd and that will be the last one. Yeah. I used to do events. I don't do events anymore. I still do a bit of speaking. But now I have the bookshop. Mm. So the bookshop is a completely different revenue stream
Fi
and it's just like noting hill. Right?
Kate
Exactly. Yeah.
Fi
Yeah. You've just kind of [00:23:00] sworn in and there's all these groovy people everywhere.
Kate
Yeah. So I mean, look, it pretty much is, it was hard the first year learning what to do, but it, I can't deny that it is not. A beautiful, I walk to work, it's in my town. It's opposite the beach. Mm. You know, the customers are lovely. The shop is beautiful. It, it's, it's, it's a pretty cool job, but it just doesn't pay very well.
Fi
It's a, it's a love job that, um, yes, you are probably not only making money from, but you're really. You're probably investing a lot more time than others would.
Kate
Absolutely. You know, having bought the shop and dropped that money in and then you have to put money into inventory and then renovations. Yes, there is like a setup cost, which I've kept quite separate.
Fi
Great.
Kate
Which I will get back when I sell the shop. You know, I don't think I will really chip away at that in my lifetime. Last year we made no profit. We lost a bit of money. Not a lot, probably about 30 grand. That's not including the setup cost this year we are, I'm starting to make enough to pay myself.
I just put, did a piece about this on LinkedIn. Mm. So if I were working there five days a week, I'd be earning about [00:24:00] 55 grand a year, which is not amazing. Yeah. But it's okay. And the average manager of a bookshop in Australia earns about 60 K.
Fi
Yeah. Yep. I would've thought so. Yep.
Kate
So, so. That was my first goal.
My next goal is to be able to pay myself 60 K and make a tiny profit, but it's gonna be in the one 2% range, you know, at most.
Fi
Yeah. Let's just try to get to five grand profit. Yes, exactly. And then to 2010 grand, and then 20 and go on from there. Something I think you've done really differently from a lot of business owners is that you've created all of these assets in your business, and I don't know if people reflect on that often or often enough.
They see your external business and go, wow. Like she's got this amazing profile. Her brand is really strong. She's really well known. Mm-hmm. And you talk about having highly profitable passive income. Hmm. But it's because you actually did the work upfront to build all of these resources and tools, the SEO course that, you know, [00:25:00] that must have been a huge amount of work.
So I love that you took that approach of saying, I'm gonna put the time into creating these assets now and then I can live off them for a really long time.
Kate
Yeah. I mean, that's the second book, uh, six Figures While You Sleep. That's what that's all about. Like how I did that, exactly. How much time it took, what it costs, and you know, I didn't know. The big thing is, is that people think they need to have a big idea, something that they could put on Shark Tank, some brand new invention. Some yes. And the thing is you don't, you just need a. A variation on a theme, a small development. So when I launched that SEO course, you know, it was 10 day course to begin with, and then it got bigger. I have no idea that that would be anything. And you know, I launched it, sold it's 20 people, and then I think I sold it to 10 in the next round, and then even less in the next round. And that's the point where a lot of people give up. Mm. The thing is, I think it's, it's the persistence. So, you know, I've run that, as I said, 31 times over 10 years.
Mm. The assets that is recipe, everything that goes with it has probably earned me probably four and a half million dollars. In [00:26:00] revenue over that time, which is again, you know, a big company like Udi would think that was nothing. But to someone like me who works on their own in a hut,
Fi
that's, it's huge.
Kate
It's huge. Right? But I never knew it would be that. So it's having the faith as well to give it a shot and not ruin your idea before you've even started and not give up on it before. It's had time to grow and become something and stick at it when you hate it. There's been years where I've hated it and I didn't want to do it anymore.
Mm. And even now. There's part of me that wants to kind of move on from SEO O and do something else, but what a fool. I would be having built such a reputation to not leverage it for a little bit longer. You know, I don't want to beat it to death, but I still enjoy it enough to keep going. You know, you don't know when you build these things and you're putting in all the hours, you're like, is this gonna work?
You never know. And you know, there's lots of other ideas that didn't work at all. You just don't hear about those.
Fi
Yeah, we bury those ones pretty quickly. Yeah, exactly.
Fi
Yeah. Delete, delete, delete. Let's just never talk of them again. Delete. Delete. Never happen.
Kate
Yes, yes. Exactly. Yeah, I [00:27:00] agree with you saying so, because I've worked with small business owners for 25 years and I see people give up after that, you know? First, second, or third attempt at something, and I've done it too. Like sometimes you just don't have the energy to push through that difficult part. But often, even with something simple, I really feel like you'll agree with me, Kate. Even as simple as chasing up a proposal, people just don't chase it up and up enough times.
No. So we think we'll send one or two follow ups, like, Hey, did you get my proposal? Are you gonna go ahead? And then we don't get a response. We wrap ourselves in a douna and never talk to that person again. But actually we need to follow up so many more than two times because people are busy and things get forgotten.
It's like, oh shit, I really wanted to get back to Kate. And then, you know, 14 other things happen and Kate's emails now down at the bottom of my inbox. So I think it's the same principle. It's like [00:28:00] we have to actually follow through more. The same with marketing, like you can't have a passive income business.
Without a huge commitment to marketing. Right.
Kate
I think that's it. I mean, with the proposal example as well. I think if you don't keep making contacts, the client feels awkward that they didn't get back to you. Yeah. You make contact. It's permission for them to say, I'm so sorry, I've been really busy with life.
If you never make contact again, they feel awkward getting in touch with you 'cause they feel they've let you down. It's all weird. Right. It's all, it's the same as like chasing up payment. After a while, if you're not able to pay, it feels awkward. You have to kind of, you as the supplier have to say, Hey, how about you pay me on credit card? Or how about we do a payment plan? And then you'll get a response, you know, so. So agree with that. With marketing, I think people are like, oh, people must be sick of hearing about this. I've posted about it three times on Instagram. People must be sick of it. And also, if someone wanted to buy it, they would've bought it by now, right?
Wrong. They used to say it was seven times you needed to see something before you made a purchase decision. Now apparently it's 23 or something ridiculous.
Fi
Yeah, I heard it [00:29:00] was 30, but who knows?
Kate
It's ridiculous because we're bombarded with so many messages, so much. I'm writing a book at the moment about selling without using ads.
The amount of messages we are bombarded with every day. You know, subliminal, content based, real ads, editorials, videos, podcasts. Mm. All to which to a degree are selling something. You know that it really takes a long time to build up that trust, that recognition, yes, that desire, because at the end of the day, even if I love you, for example, I love Theona Johnson. I really wanna work with her. I get her values. I understand who she is. I understand her products. I like her brand. I follow her. I listen to her podcast. I still have to wait until I have the money. Yes, and the opportunity, the time and the money. So even if I want you so hard, I still have to wait till those two stars collide.
If you've stopped messaging me or showing up, I'm like, oh, I'm finally ready. And she's not here, so,
Fi
Hmm. Yeah. Look, sometimes people take three or [00:30:00] four years of being in my orbit and then all of a sudden
Kate
you need a funnel. You need a little slippery funnel.
Fi
Yeah. It's a slippery funnel. All of a sudden they just show up and sign up for good money club.
Kate
And I'm like, what? Where were you? And the thing is, people will do that and I'll be like, gosh, I've never. Seen you like anything or anything, they're like, oh no, I've been on your list for seven years. And you're like, oh yes, you know, I'm just a lurker and now I have the time. And that's the thing, right?
You use up your first degree of Kevin Bacon very quickly. Your friends. And your friends of friends. And then it is strangers. And strangers take a long time to make a decision 'cause they don't know you. They're waiting for proof. They wanna feel comfortable with you. You may even make some missteps over the years in your marketing.
They need to then recover from those like you again, get back on the train, get back in your tunnel. So it's a long game and I think a lot of people aren't prepared to play the long game.
Fi
Yeah. And a lot of people. Like people just give up too soon. But also I think a lot of people are being sold. The idea of the quick win and I'm gonna get to a million dollars in [00:31:00] seven weeks and all this sort of bullshit that we hear on the internet.
I think people can tell when they come across someone like you or me who's just clearly. We're long-termers. We both have perseverance and dedication. Yeah, and we're self-motivated. And it's okay if you take seven years to sign up for my thing. You are still just as welcome. Seven years on as you were right at the start.
But a lot of people don't kind of stick in there.
Kate
Yeah. You just have to wear people down. That's what I do. Like people are just so sick of me. They're like, oh God, I'm so sick of your face. I'll just buy something, you know? And this is it. You know? I'm almost sick of me, and I have taken some breaks in the last year or so to kind of take a step back because I want to have a little break come back slightly differently.
I'm doing this whole presentation about Madonna. Oh, I should have done Taylor Swift eras. It's showing my age, but you know, the reinvention. And how you know you are at the core of your business. You may have multiple offers over the years. You might call yourself a money coach one year, and then a [00:32:00] money mentor the next.
You might have a course, a program. Yeah. But it's you that carries through all of it. How we change and reinvent over the years is really important as well, because we all know that after a while we do get sick of the same product and sometimes it's the same product in a different package and sort all of a sudden we're excited about it again and we have to think about that.
Fi
Yeah. And keeping ourselves excited is part of the game. Like we're allowed to invest in rest and recuperation. Reinvention, you're allowed to rebrand or create a new, you know, whatever. I've accepted that I need to do something kind of big at least once every couple of years. So, you know, two years ago it was creating a documentary, then it was creating a podcast,
Kate
TV show. Next maybe.
Fi
But this year is about creating a festival, which. You'll have to ask me after it's over whether I'm still standing. But yeah, I think it's part of like being in business for that long. We're allowed to wanna reinvent ourselves and I [00:33:00] find Madonna much more inspiring than Taylor Swift.
Sorry. Swifties.
Kate
I think as well though, like people who can reinvent are the ones that can stay around. You know, I've had people in some of my memberships now for 11 years, nearly 10 years. And, uh, people drop by the wayside. You know, I, a couple of people today on the call said, well, I'm giving up. I'm gonna get a real job.
And I think for many people, small businesses for a reason, a season, and there's some lifers. Mm-hmm. Right? And often us lifers are only lifers. 'cause no one will bloody employers again, to be honest. Sometimes it's for a reason. You know, it fits around your parenting or that stage of life. Sometimes it's for a season, you enjoy it for like five years and then you don't enjoy it anymore.
And for some of us, I think we are lifers, but even the lifers need to reinvent. Everything gets star after a while. Everything, you know, the thing that be became was your side hustle becomes your job. Yeah. And then you make a new side hustle and that becomes a job. So it's, it's keep going. You have to refresh, not just for your [00:34:00] audience, but for yourself.
Fi
Yeah. You, you just gotta have that self-determination and self-drive because no one's coming to do it for you.
Kate
No one's coming to save you.
Fi
Yeah. So, just changing tack a little, I wanna understand what you've learned about money. So like any kind of big decisions you've made that you think were really great, or things you might have done differently and just what has been, you know, how you've made decisions in business for this long.
Kate
I think, you know, I was bought up to never a borrower or a lender B, so never to have credit cards or anything like that, which obviously then meant I got credit cards and got in debt. Mm-hmm. You know, was rebelled. So, you know, I'm a, I'm debt averse. I, I never want to have debt. I had a big tax debt about $50,000 on stage, which was just due to not paying any attention to my numbers, and I never want to be in that position again.
I hate it. So I will do anything. To avoid that, and that means that I'm willing to work extra hours, do what it needs to do, [00:35:00] dance. If I need to dance, I'll do that to avoid that feeling. When you open a bill and you know you haven't got the money to cover it, to avoid that feeling when you're at the checkout and you know you're gonna have to put something back, I've been there, it's horrific.
Never wanna be there again. So I'm debt averse and I will work my ass off to avoid debt. Mm. But I've also learned at the top of it, there's only so much money I need. I am not somebody that wants to live a luxury lifestyle. I enjoy travel a little bit, but not a lot. I don't like big fancy cars, jewelry brands, anything like that really don't, I don't need to earn a lot either.
I'm very much about the minimal viable income, what do I need to survive, and then what's a little something, something on top, and that's enough and I wanna make that in as little time as possible. So those are two big lessons. I think some smart decisions I've made. When I did get a big blob of money, I'm gonna be honest, I had a year where I lived a little bit of a luxury lifestyle.
I mean, this is working class English person, luxury lifestyle. I stayed at some nice hotels. I hired a yacht once. Woo. I know it was like [00:36:00] six. It was dingy. Really? But that felt cool. You know, I went on a seaplane. I bought the most expensive champagne rather than the $20 one, you know, for about a year. And then I didn't enjoy that anymore.
And then I started to invest. So all the money I've had, I've invested into property. Now I've invested into shares, which meant I, I also, when I got separated from my partner, I was able to get a director's loan from my own company to buy him out of our house. So I am financially independent. Yes. And I would never give that up.
Mm. I will never get married. I will never live with anybody. I will never give that financial independence up ever again. So that's a big lesson, which makes me sound very bitter. I'm not bitter. I've just learned that it's very important to me to be the captain of my financial ship. And that came partly from the big tax debt, the not having the money at the grocery checkout.
Fi
Yeah. And also growing up in a, yeah. Particular money culture or, yeah.
Kate
Yeah. Growing up in a kind of working class culture, but it also grew up from [00:37:00] like seeing many women separate from their partner and being absolutely financially ruined, or men being financially ruined. It can go either way. And just never wanting that for myself.
You know, like also, one of the things I really don't like for women especially, is when I, and I think some women. Don't necessarily mean it, but when they say, I'll ask my partner if I can do that, I'll ask my partner if I can afford that. I've never asked my partner about affording anything because I'm paying for it.
Mm. You know, unfortunately, who has the financial wherewithal is often the dominant person in the, in the relationship. Yeah. And, um, I'm glad it was me. Mm-hmm. Not that I used that over my partner, but I, I'm glad it was me. I would hate to be the other way around. So again, I will work very hard to maintain that financial independence.
Fi
So you're more interested in stability and long-term financial wellbeing. Being able to retire early, but not necessarily retiring early.
Kate
Yeah, yeah. Just being safe. As safe as we can be in this crazy world we live in. You know, I know [00:38:00] that the property market could drop out. I know that shares can go up and down. I know that my house could burn down, but, and there's only so much you can do, but trying to control. As much as I can control and then letting the rest go, you know, it's a hard balance. Yeah.
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Fi
Um, so anything you can [00:39:00] think of that you've changed your mind about money as a business owner or anything that's, you kind of like you used to do this at the start and now you've completely changed your tune. Um, I mean, I love how you talked about how you were a million dollar business owner and then you decided actually. That's not for me.
Kate
Look, I think I'm, I think I understand the concept of good debt and bad debt. Like good fat and bad fat. You know, avocado, avocado debt is okay.
Fi
Love it. Um, avocado debt and olive oil debt. As opposed to lard.
Kate
Yeah, yeah, exactly. As opposed to like bad. Yeah. McDonald's debt. Um. So, you know, I, on paper have huge debts, huge liabilities, mortgages and whatever, but they're, you know, they're managed risks.
You know, as I said, I'm risk averse, so I have not, you know, highly high risk shares anything. So understanding avocado debt would be one thing. And then the other one is, uh, constantly being pushed to have a premium offer in my business, like a 10 KVIP day or mm-hmm. 20 K program. [00:40:00] And I. I've never felt comfortable doing that. Mm. I, one thing I've stuck to always is the price at lows stuck at high, and the the reason is, is morally, I do not think, it's not that I don't value myself, I think that I offer great things. Mm. I do not want someone to give me $20,000 of their money, fricking anything other than the kidney. Maybe I just do not feel morally comfortable with that, and just because I could.
Doesn't mean I should just because in the market I could probably do that and someone would might pay it. I wouldn't morally feel right about it. Yeah. One thing I've learned is I am not comfortable with high ticket offers. I don't often think that they live up to their promise. Um, and so I won't do them.
Fi
Hmm. We have a little bit of a difference of opinion there, which I love, like that we can have a different opinion and I think it all just comes down to how you wanna run your business, right? Like some people love, like there's some memberships that have a thousand members paying [00:41:00] $200 a year, so like that's one way of doing it. Then there's memberships like yours that are perhaps more of an intermediate kind of space. I think yours is around 200 a month. So yeah, so that allows you to have quite a lot of people in there and then you need support for those people. And then there's my membership, which the way I run it is that a $600 a month, but I have a really small crew or really small community.
Kate
Well, I have that as well. I do have a thousand dollars a month program, and that's only got a few people in it. I mean, I'm talking about the 50. I'm talking about charging someone 20 grand to spend a day with you and go for dinner. Yeah. You know?
Fi
Yeah, we do. We have the 20 grand, like if anyone wants to spend 20 grand to have a day with me, please send me your credit card.
Kate
I mean, seriously, if someone wants to do that. Yeah. Imagine someone would paid 20 grand not to spend the day with me. That's what you can do. But yeah, there's, yeah, just different models. I don't think a [00:42:00] thousand dollars a month is, is, is astronomical. Mm. But I think as higher you go, the, the, the more you're changing the audience, the type of people you can work with, the level of expectation might change.
But also I like helping people who are at the beginning of their journey. I like yeah. Being accessible. I like, yeah, I like that. And uh, and that's okay. As you said, difference of opinion, different people and good on the people who can charge 50 grand. Maybe if I did go and spend a day with them, I would be doing a lot better
But um, yeah, just not for me. So there's always boundaries about what you're comfortable charging. I don't necessarily think that's about self-worth. I think sometimes it's just about how you want to be in the world and who you want to serve, you know?
Fi
Yeah. Look, I don't know too many people who've spent 50 grand on a mastermind or whatever and didn't regret it.
I do know lots of people who've done it, but I dunno anyone who's done it and not regretted it, I know it.
Kate
Yeah, exactly. Or that trip to something island or that. Three day retreat for whatever with Doodle Oodle. And I'm like, what could you possibly [00:43:00] learn? What's so illuminating? 'cause most of us, if we really think about it, we do need a bit of gentle pushing.
We do need education, like I needed help with money. But at the end of the day, once I've got that education and I know what to do, most of my problem is just not doing what I know I ought to do. Most of my problem is not sitting at my desk and sticking to my to-do list. I don't need some epiphany granted to me by some rich entrepreneur. I just need to sit down and get on with it. That's my approach. So yeah, most of us need accountability more than we need new ideas. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, we can. There's another one we can do effort over. Epiphany, definitely avocado, debt and effort over epiphany. These are our new terms that we're sharing.
Fi
Agree wholeheartedly. You are so good at naming things. It's definitely one of your secret sources. Um, Kate, before we wrap up, I just wanna ask you a couple of other questions. So, what's your favorite thing that you've spent Money on?
Kate
My swimming pool.
Fi
Ooh, okay. [00:44:00] Tell me more.
Kate
Uh, as a g as I said, again, I keep playing the working class girl thing.
I mean, I'm middle working class, you know what I mean? Upper, upper working class. Um. Where I grew up, having a pool was the ultimate sign of wealth. Right? You know, it was not the done thing. I love swimming. I love the visual of water. I love being in the water. I am part otter. Um, so pulling together the money to put a pool into my back garden, which, you know, it's my back garden, my money, no one else is helping me do this.
It took me a long time to save up for years of trying to decide how to do it. But now I'm sitting here recording this podcast and out my window is my pool, which to be honest, I very rarely go in, but I love it. But you look at it every day? Yep. It's possibly my only kind of symbol of wealth. You know, I drive a Mazda two that's all scraped. I don't have a Lu Vuitton hand. I was gonna say Lu Vuitton handbags, but I think they make cheese.
Fi
I'm not a handbag girl. I wouldn't have a clear, no.
Kate
My pool is, is my most extravagant, wonderful thing.
Fi
I love it. And so what's the [00:45:00] one piece of advice that you'd give to somebody who's either getting started in business or they're at a kind of a pivot in their journey and then,
Kate
you know, it seems ironic that I'm on a money podcast, but for me it, it's all about money.
It really is all about making a budget, understanding your outgoings. Working out what I think is a minimal viable income, that's really important to me. What can you survive on? Because that's your baseline and as long as you hit that, you'll be fine. Um, so if you're gonna pivot, is your minimum vi viable income covered while you are pivoting? Fine. You can be poor for a few months. You can not have the fancy restaurant and the. You know, 17 different streaming accounts, four A bids to get where you want to go. So really just being on your money, not putting in a cupboard and going, I'll work it out later. Because you know, people are like, oh, if you take care of the pennies, whatever, take care of themselves. No, they don't. No. You have out all of it. Look at it every fricking day. I, I should be able to ask you right now what's in your bank account. Yes. Every single one of them. All your profit first. And you should have a vague idea. I should be able to ask you how much you spend on [00:46:00] XA month, and you should know.
Mm. Because that's for me. It doesn't matter if you're the best copywriter or the most amazing speaker or whatever, if you don't know your money, you don't know nothing and you won't five the long term.
Fi
Oh, hallelujah. Sing it to me.
Kate
Oh, preach it baby.
Fi
So what's the best piece of advice you've been given or like from a book or a person or a movie?
Kate
I don't take advice well at all. I have objectional, uh, defiance disorder, so when anyone gives me any advice or tells me what to do, I might,
Fi
it's just bang. No thank you.
Kate
Just bugger off. Yeah, bugger off. Um, but I think really, um, one line that sticks with me is, uh, Robert Garris, who I, who I love to, used to run flying solo.
I mean, he's alive, but, uh, he's just not running anymore. Mm. He always helped me sort of frame what success looks like to me, you know, and he is like. You are on a stage, everyone's clapping. What are they clapping you for? And yeah, that's an easy one. But really for me it was someone sort of saying, well, you know, how do you want, what's your ideal day? Sit down and write down your ideal day. Mm-hmm. And, and it is not about speaking [00:47:00] an event or winning an award or whatever. Really, it's about having not much stress. Working a little bit, but not too many hours. Yeah. Chatting to some cool people like you, and then popping down to the shops Mm. You know, watching a bit of telly. Mm. That, that's what I, and I want that day after day after day after day. Forever with no drama. If I can achieve that, that's my version of success. So really that advice was really good for me. Writing down what your ideal day is. Um, rather than thinking about I wanna tick off X amount of goals.
Fi
I love it.
Yeah. It's like let's get down to the small Yeah. And then we can kind of work from there. Yeah. To work out what you're gonna be congratulated for on the stage.
Kate
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Fi
Mm. And so what's next for Kate Toon and the Toonverse?
Kate
Ah, well, I don't know. I've got Christmas coming up in the shop, which is always a very busy, profitable time.
I hope. I'm really hoping we see some good profit in that period. Mm-hmm. Then my, um, next book is coming out in March. It's called Six Figures in Sales.
Fi
Um, oh, how many, how many books will [00:48:00] that be?
Kate
That will be the third in the Six Figure Trilogy and the last, in that one, um, that trilogy and then. Next year, I don't know.
So once that's all done, I've already arranged with the team that at the end of March we're getting together to look at the business and go, what do we want to do? Because I think it may be letting some projects go, changing some stuff, having a break, I don't know. So I don't know. And isn't that the most exciting thing?
'cause you know, I didn't know a year and a half ago I'd end up buying a bookshop and now it's my entire personality. So not knowing is not bad because then you're open, I think, to great things that might come along.
Fi
Yeah. And where's the best place for people to get in contact with you, Kate?
Kate
Well, hopefully my SEO is good.
And if you type in Kate Toon, you should find me.
Fi
And if people want their SEO to be almost as good as yours, they should come and join your very last round of the SEO program.
Kate
Yes, that's kicking off in January, 2026. I also have a. Price it low, stack it high at the moment. A little workshop, which is a hundred bucks to learn ai, SEO.
So [00:49:00] have to do it all faster and easier using all these evil AI tools. Cool.
Fi
Yes, I find AI to be quite evil too, so thank you for naming it.
Kate
It is evil, but it's a necessary evil. Unfortunately, we have to dabble, I think. Or at least understand it and then we can ignore it. Yeah.
Fi
I don't think the AI companies have noticed that I'm not using ai.
Kate
I'm sure they're devastated.
Fi
Thank you so much for your time, Kate. This has been really fun and yeah, I can almost visualize your pool out of your window there.
Kate
Send a little photo. I'll send you a photo afterwards.
Fi
Yeah, I think I might be part, part author too. I whatever. You're kind of
Kate
come down to your mind and we can float in the pool together and hold arms like sea otters do.
Fi
Yeah. I really wish we were gonna be at sleepover together, but I know I'm annoyed.
Kate
Dam you in your fabulous, fantastic festival
Fi
pretty much having a heart attack. Every day thinking about it.
Kate
It will be beautiful and you'll love it. And when it finishes, you'll go, let's do it again. Um, so make sure you have someone to talk you down.
Fi
Yep. [00:50:00] Rugby tackle me to never say anything again or not like this Anyway, not like this.
Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. I have absolutely loved it. You're a legend.
Kate
Thank you.
Outro
Thank you so much for listening right up to the end. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Money Secrets, where we talk about the money secrets of successful small business owners. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love it if you subscribe to the podcast. But leave us a review or share this episode with one of your friends. I hope you learned something. I hope you got a new perspective, and I really hope you enjoyed the listening experience.
