[00:00:00] Jen Murnaghan
I've got it wrong for a long time and I probably could have made lots more money if I had come to you 10 years ago.
Fi Johnston
I love that. Yeah. And you know, you have all of these new financial literacy skills now, but more importantly, you know how to pitch for what you want and put a dollar number next to it.
Yeah. You've proven what I believed, which is that when women talk about money openly with other women in spaces where they can trust each other, everybody makes more money.
Intro Fi
If we want to be able to tip the scales towards the favor of marginalized people, we need to understand the secrets to making money in small business.
The more we talk about money and the secrets that usually stay at the golf club, the more likely we are to be able to make money. My mission is to get more money into the hands of good people, specifically good business people like you. This is Money Secrets, the place to learn about the money secrets of successful small business [00:01:00] owners.
Let's go.
Acknowledgement of Country
This podcast episode was recorded on the lands of the WRI people of the KU Nation. And I'd like to acknowledge them as the traditional owners and custodians of this land and water that I live, work, and play on. I'd like to pay respects to elders both past and present, and note that sovereignty has never been seeded.
This always was and always will be. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land.
Fi
Okay, so you are about to meet Jen Murnaghan from Digital Dandy, who is a client and friend of mine. We've known each other for about five years now. I think. We go back, we go way back. And while you're listening to this episode, you're probably gonna think to yourself, is this lady a voiceover artist? And the answer is, she should be. Welcome to the Money Secrets podcast, Jen.
Jen
Oh, it's a real treat to be chatting with you in this way, and [00:02:00] thank you for such a kind intro.
Fi
It's a pleasure. Um, Jen, would you like to let the audience know a little bit about you and your backstory?
Jen
Yeah, I'd love to introduce myself. Um, obviously based on my accent, I'm not from Australia, but I have actually crossed the threshold of living longer in Australia than I have in Ireland, which was very weird feeling actually when that, that happened last year. I spent 23 years of my life in, I grew up in Dublin. And I always had a travel bug that took me to Australia in 2000.
And I had this visceral experience when I touched down and I thought something significant is gonna change in my life here. Uh, and I did because after three months of being there, I met my husband and spent 10 years in Sydney. And, uh, have been now in Hobart and Tasmania since 2009.
Fi
I love it. I didn't know that you'd been in [00:03:00] Australia that long, Jen.
And I love that feeling of like, I think it's something that only travel can really do for you is to put your body into a whole nother environment. And even if you just think about the top line differences between Ireland and Australia, different sun, different kind of trees, different. Temperature.
Jen
There's a difference, but there's a similarity. So I tried to live in France and I failed miserably that I got so incredibly homesick. I still didn't want to leave. And that was one of my first experiences of I've failed in inverted commas, but I just, you know, in hindsight it just, I just wasn't in the right place.
Fi
Mm-hmm. So you landed in Sydney not long after you met your now husband. Tell me a bit about what happened between landing in Sydney and Yeah. Starting your business. What were you doing?
Jen
So this is where I, I met my husband. He had a hotel in Surry Hills and I got a job there. Uh, so my husband is a chef. And, uh, he and his best friend owned this hotel and we had tremendous fun working there. Then of course, thanks to Visas, I only had a limited time working there, so I actually, when I decided that this was somewhere I wanted to invest more time, I started studying. I studied fundamentals of mm-hmm. Design and interior decoration, I think it was.
Fi
Wow.
Jen
And, uh, yes, I did that. I won a part scholarship and oh, that then led me to, uh, working with the Florence Broadhurst Collection, which introduced me to the world of interior fabrics. And I then went to work for architects, which I was bought over by Moko, which is a New Zealand fabric, uh, wholesaler for interiors. And that is really where I cut my teeth and learned the most. That led me to the work that I do now. And I, um, worked with a design director who was, and, and still is a mentor, and now a very, very dear friend, um, Steph [00:05:00] Moffitt. She taught me everything that I know really now. And gave me the space to learn, gave me the space to make mistakes. Mm-hmm. And saw potential in me that allowed me to grow from being her assistant to becoming the brand ambassador for all of their international brands that they represented. So I worked there for six years, and this is pre-social media and it was the start of email marketing and newsletters. So that was kind of encoding stage.
Very, very early days. Then we developed a beautiful company magazine, um, that I had the pleasure of editing. It was a really, really important six years for me in my professional growth and development.
Fi
And shout out to all the employers out there who let people learn on the job like that, because. From where I'm standing, you are always made to be working in marketing, brand storytelling, and that's not what your study pathway was, but you've ended up in an organization where [00:06:00] somebody that you are working for let you flourish and sort of develop into that new space.
Jen
Yeah, a hundred percent. Then of course I got, I got pregnant and uh, I still needed to bring in a little bit of money. So I don't wanna shout out to the beautiful jewelry. It's no longer, um, here, but it used to be called Poly, P-O-L-L-I. And I worked there and it was just a glorious time and very progressive time when we all had babies and we all sat around the dining room table and made jewelry while our kids were either asleep upstairs or sitting around the table.
Fi
Sounds like a beautiful time. The wonderful women of Polly.
Jen
The wonderful women of Polly, who again, were incredibly progressive and inclusive and, and hugely successful because they built the model of their business on their own terms. Yeah. And then my second child was born and we were living in a very sweet, a very small apartment in the eastern suburbs of Sydney. And we looked at each other and we said, how are we gonna manage this with [00:07:00] two boys? Is this the way we wanna live our lives? And we both agreed that it wasn't, and we started exploring what our options were. We're gonna have to get out of that part of Sydney because we were to ever hit the property ladder.
It was completely out of our reach. And I did, as I usually do when I have a question that I can't answer myself, I ask lots of people and the resounding response was, if you wanna bring up your kids in Australia. And it was really clear to me that I was going to be the primary care for the boys. Mm-hmm. And I started a blog called The Brother's Trim. So it was a play on the brother's grim, like Grimm's fairytales. But this was the brother's trim. And as somebody who grew up in a family of girls, and now I've got two boys. Mm. I thought, right. Well, I've got a bit to learn. So I decided to create this blog, um, that was what is the alternative to swords and guns, um, when it comes to the [00:08:00] stereotypical boys toys.
And that blossomed into a very successful and delightful experience of learning on the hop digital marketing. Uh, storytelling and connection. Does it still exist? No. What a shame. I know, but you know, some things, they are seasonal and it would've been pretty amazing if it lasted all these years. But it, it was an incredibly good learning experience for me, and I learned so much about the internet and it was a stepping stone for the various places I found myself and. Businesses than that I have run since moving to Tasmania.
Fi
I love it. And I mean, there's nothing like learning on the job is there and I mean that's really what small business is. Yeah. It's an apprenticeship that you start the day you open your business. Oh yeah. So does this take us up to digital dandy?
Jen
This takes us almost up to digital Dan. So from the blogging that then led to working in a [00:09:00] bookshop called Fullers in Hobart, which was the best entry to learning about the social set of Hobart. That led me to working as one of the producers for the markets. If anybody ever went to Mona back in the 2010, 2011, when Mona opened, we had these really fun markets during the summer. So I worked, I worked co-producing them for a number of years. Mm-hmm. And. That then led me to my detail business, which was called Dish Pig, and that was page two of my digital development post a blog when social media was a really delightful place to be connecting and building community. And I did that. I did that really well with with Dish Pig back in the early days. Managed to do some fundraising, made some really lovely connections. Did markets, again, all of this worked around the kids. Mm-hmm. So part two, feeling of failing was when I realized that the amount of work I was putting into [00:10:00] Dish pig, the return on investment. Was not working. So I really looked at what was really the area that I loved the most. And it was the marketing and the connecting and the community building. So when people were saying to me, Jen, can you help me with my Facebook page? And I was getting more and more of these requests, so I listened into that and I thought, huh, Jen, you know, if you actually just did this instead, uh, you would reduce your expenses and you can work from home in your own time. This could actually be something. So that's when Digital Dandy was born.
Fi
Yeah, I love it. According to your awesome bio, digital Dandy was founded in 2013 by Irish Expat, Jen Mohan, a senior marketing consultant with over 20 years of experience in communications content and brand strategy. And that leads us to where you are today.
I mean, there's been. 12 years in between running digital dandy. Yeah. [00:11:00] And we crossed paths. I think we met through Instagram or something like so many business friendships now.
Jen
I was admiring you for long, you were recommended to me actually. And I said, oh, I, I, she's, mm-hmm. I saw you up in this. Kind of pedestal of, of unattainable.
Fi
And now you've realized that there's definitely no pedestal under me.
Jen
No, that's that's why you're so fantastic. That was a real surprise and delight. And, and it was also at a time where I was very subconscious and my, my self-confidence wasn't great. So when I did connect with you, I thought she sees something in me.
And that was really, that was really something. So, yeah.
Fi
Mm. And so you've been doing all this incredible work in Tasmania for amazing organizations. I mean, you mentioned Mona before. Anyone who's been to Hobart knows Mona, and you've done some amazing work there. You've worked with all of these incredible community organizations across.
Tasmania, tourism [00:12:00] events, hospitality, you know, that's kind of your, that's the way you lean. And so you've been doing this incredible work in Tassie. You've forged this 12 year long business, which is a huge achievement to get yourself to 12 years, and you've transitioned from having younger children to now the kids are a little bit older.
So you've been through all of those different levels of capacity that you've had along the way. So I suppose I wanna jump into some of your money stuff now, if we can take a little tangent. Yeah. What I notice when I'm working with female business owners is that there's just so many layers of money stuff. It's like, you know, the piece of furniture that's been painted by 20 different people and it's like we need to kind of get the chisel in and sort of get down amongst all of those layers and. Given that you've lived across different countries, different continents, even, you've been in two very different but similar places for half of your [00:13:00] life each. I wonder is there something that perhaps in the last few years while working together with me, or maybe just across your career, what's a, some kind of negative money story that you uncovered in that sort of chiseling away that you've managed to overcome? Does anything come to mind?
Jen
Mm. Let's put into context how, where I grew up and what the, uh, expectations were or the financial literacy was like when I was growing up, there was none and through no fault of anybody, certainly it was never discussed in our house.
It was something that was just taken care of. My dad was, um, a very hardworking barrister. And he worked very hard for all of us, and that's just what he did. And mom dedicated her time to looking after us, and she was there for us at home. But the only time we really ever talked about money was pocket money in our piggy banks and banks were a [00:14:00] very austere.
Place, certainly from my memories of being younger, and they were very haughty and not accessible and we never really went into them. So they felt very foreign. And of course there was no internet banking or anything like that back in those days. It was all the bank book. I feel like you kind had to make an appointment to go to the.
I know there were tellers, but, um, ATMs were the most exciting thing ever that came out and in school, I never, I'm not a natural mathematician, quite the opposite. I, I just had no confidence. I could never add up in my head. And that. Was always a huge block for me.
Fi
And is the experience that the numbers feel blurry in your mind or is it they just don't kind of crystallize in your mind or something?
Jen
No, and I am such a visual learner. I just had a massive block and the more I couldn't do it, the stronger the block was. Yes. And it was just the default was I can't do it, so therefore why should I even try? [00:15:00] That's where it ended up, which has been my greatest. Shall I say regret that I, there was no other way for me to overcome that.
Mm. And also there was no, you know, the boys would learn accounting and finance. I think there was that, there were those offerings in boys schools. Mm-hmm. Whereas I don't know if there was a, well, certainly it wasn't available. Not in our school. Wow. Yes. So different. So different to what the kids learn these days.
So generational gender and cultural financial literacy challenges. This is Ireland in the 1980s from my experience. So when I, I said I'm, well, I'm gonna stop my own business, I knew this barrier was daring me straight in the face. My strong, independent side said. Well, I'm not gonna let that stop me. This will be my greatest challenge.
Fi
I love it. Yeah, so at home, money was just kind of not really talked about much, except in the context of money coming outta the ATM, [00:16:00] sometimes money going into and out of piggy banks, and then all of a sudden you're sort of thrust into this business. Now the money is your responsibility.
Jen
Well, I mean, I had part-time jobs when I went to university, and I loved that independence.
Mm. I saved up for my first car, so I was able to hand over. The first car loan I've ever had was last year. I always saved up for my traveling, so I had that money and I've worked since I was 15. So that appreciation for my own money was really important to me, and we've always kept it that way. Like in our family, we have.
Joint accounts, but I still have my own independent accounts just because that's how I've always been.
Fi
That's how you've chosen to do it. Yeah. Clearly you're a good saver. You've got a good track record of being able to manage your money, and then what happens when the business starts? Is there, does that block come up for you again?
Or how do you sort of overcome this block that you had as a child where the [00:17:00] numbers weren't. Crystallizing to now having a job where somebody pays you is one thing, but having a business where it's up to you to work out all of the money, what, what was that like?
Jen
Um, well, I kept it very simple. Mm-hmm. And I knew instinctively that you don't spend lots of money if you income isn't. Able to cover that. I probably made a few rookie errors there, but nothing that stands out as a major fault. Gotcha. You know, l learning the whole tax system was pretty daunting, but as soon as I could afford it, I got an accountant and I got a bookkeeper because the idea of doing my tax returns. And managing the income and expenses and, and everything put me into a cold sweat and it would actually was, it just filled me with dread and anxiety. So I knew that as a terrible delegator. I was really clear that was a really good spend and I've been with the same people since I started Digital Landy.
Fi
Yes, every small [00:18:00] business owner needs an accountant. Absolutely 1000%. Many small business owners can really benefit from the services of a bookkeeper.
Love it.
Jen
And I think also what it stopped me from doing my financial discomfort, I guess, is actually expanding. I had many opportunities to become an agency and also to build a team. And probably after reading, uh, the book Company of one, it gave me permission to not do that because the idea of the responsibility of that managing and, and being responsible for all those people when I was responsible already for too little people and being away from.
Family networks. I just, I couldn't manage that. And, you know, emotionally, um, mentally and, and I tried many times. I had, I had a contractor and they were earning more than me and it just, that often happens. Yeah. And it just wasn't working. So I said, let's just go back. And that took me ages to reconcile.
Fi
Yeah. I love [00:19:00] the company of one book. I love it. I love the concept that. This pursuit of being bigger is flawed. It's not the right approach for so many of us. And what I love about that book and the philosophy behind it is that your business goal can be about getting better, not bigger. And so that's the decision you've reconciled with, that I'm not gonna build an agency, I'm gonna be a company of one, and I'm gonna own it and I'm gonna love it. And 12 years later. Obviously it worked. Tell me about it. It has.
Jen
Mm, I mean, I, I do subcontract and based on the projects that I've been working on, I've now built a network of people that I will bring in when they are needed, whether it's. Photography, videography, um, SEO specialists, ad specialists, writers.
I have this fantastic, solid group of people. And then when I know that I can rely on them and call on them or not, depending on, on whatever I'm working at on, at the time. And that feels really [00:20:00] good because it takes a long time to find the right kind of people that fit with you, that you know. That you can just hand over the work and they are on par with you.
That was really important and yeah, getting to that point took ages, but it just felt, it felt right. I guess one of the biggest things of learning business is that you gotta trust your instinct a lot of the times, and you've really got to listen. Be really honest with what you're hearing and what you're feeling. There is no way that I would know myself as well as I do now if I hadn't owned my own business.
Fi
Mm. Sometimes our gut instinct is shouting at us and sometimes it's very quiet. We're not always able to kind of tap into that depending on, you know, what's happening. And I think one of the things that I love about coaching and, you know, helping my clients to have that reflection time is.Sometimes we actually need a bit of time to quiet ourselves so that we can actually hear whatever that gut instinct or that [00:21:00] intuition or that inner voice is telling us. Hey, this isn't working for me. Or, oh, I'm really excited in pursuing this particular direction, or that person that I met last week seems like that's somebody I wanna speak to again.
Like often we're so busy and our brain gets so noisy that we can't actually hear that.
Jen
That's right. And add on people pleaser into the mix. Yes. And it, there's a lot of internal dialogue.
Fi
Mm. Yeah. So from the girl who. Thinks she may have dyscalculia or at least has some blocks around the numbers. Great Saver, loves the independence of money, has forged her career and her business to be what she wants it to be.
You've been in business for 12 years, so you've overcome a lot of difficulties. You've done some amazing things, like you can't be in business for that long without having a few scars. Also a few perhaps internal trophies or maybe external ones too.
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Fi
One of the things that I'm really keen to talk to you about today is something, you know, the way I think about it is that are you even a small business owner?
If you're not looking on Seek every second day to see. Is the grass greener on the other side? Because let's face it, being in business is a lot of things, but easy is not one of them. [00:23:00] And so both you and I have chosen the hard of small business for the last, you know, however long. I'd be lying if I didn't tell you that.
Occasionally I dream about what it might be like for somebody else to be making the decisions and paying my salary. Mm. So tell me about what's happened to you in the last couple of months.
Jen
Absolutely. I mirror all of that. I remember having an internal conversation with myself many years ago. Where I said, okay, as, as soon as the boys are educated and one is finishing high school this year and the other is will be moving into his last two years, they're strong, independent young men now, and there is a real shift.
Mm-hmm. For all of those who have kids the same age, you'll know what I'm talking about in that while they still need you, it's, it's in a different capacity. But a lot of that practical time and. Time in itself during the day, you're not needed because they have their independence. [00:24:00] And so I knew there was gonna be a change happening for me when I reached this point.
And this year I finished a very long contract that I had, which was eight years of coaching, uh, small businesses here in Tassie. And that was like my bread and butter. And I reflected on this thinking right. There was an obvious reason why it ended. But for me, I've gotta listen into why has this occurred at this point, you know, my last year of my forties and also is this juncture where, where I'm positioned as a mum.
So I've started the idea of actually rebranding. I'm moving away from Digital Dandy. I'm focusing more in on me as a consultant and the work that I have been pursuing probably over the last 18 months in a lot more detail, which is the brand storytelling and foundational marketing work. That I've really thrived in.
Mm. And so with all of this new energy floating around, I get this phone call.
Jen
I also wanna just [00:25:00] flag that we, um, we had a really amazing week together. You came on retreat. Yes, we did. So I wonder if that time to be able to reflect. So we run a retreat that is an amalgamation between my Good Money Club members, which is how I know you and Mia from Campaign Del Mars Marketing Circle. We come together, we offer spaces only to the women who are in those communities to come and have an experience together. Yeah, and I think it was, it was amazing to get to know you better and to be able to have that kind of. Space to really think about what's happening. Yeah. First time I've ever done a business retreat in a pivotal time where I was moving into a, I guess having a lens of, yes, I deserve to do this.
Yes, I can afford to do this. Yes, I need to do this. And listening to my peers and the really gorgeous group of people that we shared that [00:26:00] time together with, we had lots of reflection time. And you know, I came away with a clear understanding of, um, my value. Also remembering because living on an island, you can get very siloed into island living and you can often forget about where your value and that your values can actually stretch across the whole country, not just in the island that I live in.
You know, I'm like, Jen, you lived in and worked in Sydney for 10 years and you're from Ireland. It's, it's important to, to just remember where you, where you sit and, and, and where you have been. And you know, I had the opportunity to think about all of that. Yeah. And it's a global economy, isn't it? Yes. So adding that into the mix and, and a kind of a fervor of transition and change, even though I didn't know what that was yet.
Then, um, my phone rang on a Friday probably. Six weeks ago, ah, and ironically it was a friend and previous employer. One of my first little [00:27:00] gigs I had, um, in Hobart has also transitioned from, uh, solo. And she was, she had a very successful business. She had a baby carrier business called Babes in Arms and National Success Story, very clever, but she has recently made the transition into the corporate world, so kind of doing it.
Where you often hear of people who work in corporate and then leave to either be consultants or build their own business. And there's a new project where she's working, looking at brand evolution, um, of this really trustworthy Tasmanian brand, and they're building a new team to bring that to life. I picked up the phone and, and she said, Jen, and I knew exactly by the tone of her voice and I'm like.
Yes. And she said, there's this job just, just listen. Just, just hear me out. So I do not remember the conversation at all. I was so spun out by all of these glorious things that she was telling me, and I said, I, you've completely stumped me. So I asked her if I could sit with it. I'm gonna need a few days to even [00:28:00] seriously consider it or even consider it.
So I did, I sat with it. I told my husband, I rang my two sisters and we had a group call and I said, why is this coming to me at this juncture? And did a pros and cons list, um, discussed it more with my brains trust and thought, well, you know what? I actually have got one contract, which is a very small but very meaningful contract that I have confirmed for 2026.
Actually going on retreat really helped me with this because I was observing all of the energy of everybody in the room and how high their energy was and how hungry they were, and how they were so invested and energetic in the work that they were doing to build up their business. And I was sitting, sitting there going, oh, I'm tired.
I love my work, but I I'm not sharing you this energy. I'm like, I just wanna stop. I'm just, when [00:29:00] does the nap start? When did the nap start? I was like, I am drunk going go in the pool. Um, and everybody was, and I'm like, I was, that was me 10 years ago. Mm. That was me six years ago. But actually my focus has shifted.
Hmm. So that was another gift from the retreat and being able to actually stop and observe and reflect.
Fi
I'd love to hear a couple of the pros and cons you came up with, like business for, you know, a. Keeping your consulting business Mm. As opposed to taking this really amazing opportunity. What, what was on the list?
What comes to mind?
Jen
So I'm fiercely independent and conforming to rules. Uh, I thought, uh. Oh no. My blocks were like, oh God, I've gotta apply for leave now. Wear shoes to work and, and yeah, have to make an effort. I can't wear my uggies anymore. I know, I mean, frivolous, but I will have to be [00:30:00] really organized.
Whereas I, I, I can do everything kind of, because I work, I work from home. There's so many incidental things that I can do within my day. I'm multitask to the max. I'm not gonna have that flexibility going back to, you know, my welcome days of when I used to go into an office every day. Mm. That's a big one.
That still is a, yeah.
Fi
So it's like flexibility versus stability.
Jen
Flexibility and independence. Mm. Versus But then when I was, when I went in and had conversations with the team that I'll be working with, one of the first questions for me was, how many days would you like to work in the office? And how many days would you like to work at home? I'm like, okay. My ears have opened a little bit. And I, I can see that they're really trying to build a culture that is 20 25, 20 26 culture as opposed to you must show up and be seen to be first in last out. If that was the, the vibe, I'd be like, no, sorry. So there were particular points in the conversation where, uh, that kind of appeased my [00:31:00] concern.
So I was able to put that as, as high a, um, a worry on my list. Um, who's gonna look after the dog? That was also a worry. Still haven't worked that out yet. But if I'm not working full-time in the office, then yeah. You know, and then it also gives opportunity for the rest of my company to help out in that.
Fi
Yeah, those almost adult boys of yours.
Jen
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, and these might sound trivial, but they actually are important for me.
Fi
Absolutely.
Jen
There's things like, you know, when I, when I go overseas to see my family. That's really integral. How do I manage that? It's just because I've been so out of the loop for so long, I was instantly like, oh, that's gonna be taken.
That choice is gonna be taken away from me, or I'm gonna be, um, restricted is what my, my initial thinking was. But the more I have these. Conversations. The more I feel more comfortable, that's not the case. Not that I'm pulling the wool over my eyes. Of course there, there will be. When you work for organization, you're not working with them, you're working for them. You know, we'll be transitioning of course through that.
Fi
Yeah. So you've done the list. You've thought about things that may [00:32:00] seem trivial, but absolutely aren't. Yeah, some things are really big. Some things are more day to day. Yeah. And you've made the decision. Okay. I've had my business long enough. Perhaps I've achieved a lot of the things that I wanted to achieve. I don't have that hunger like I used to have for business 10 years ago. I'm gonna go for this. Yeah. So what I'm keen to understand is the money skills that you had built as a business owner, how did they impact your kind of approach to thinking about this opportunity or negotiating this opportunity for yourself?
Jen
Mm. The biggest one, and I've. I've been working on this for a long time and I really feel like I've made inroads is understanding my value. Yes. And that milestone moment enabled me to negotiate my salary, love it. That would not have even been in my psyche a few years ago. Mm. So being really courageous and backing myself.
[00:33:00] That conversation has made me feel even more valued and more confident stepping into the role. Yes, and it has even given me the confidence to suggest within the role itself, I provided some insight and some thoughts which actually resulted in the title being changed so that it was more appropriate to actually the work that they're doing.
So while being really careful that I, that arrogance doesn't come into play at all. 'cause I am. Most un arrogant person ever, but I just thought, I feel really strongly about this. You know, and the way in which I communicated that was valued and it was, uh, it was appreciated. So that, that comes from really the confidence of really listening to the appreciation of the work that has come before me, and understanding and being really honest with myself about.
What I can contribute and the benefits of that. And that's taken me a long time to feel comfortable with even [00:34:00] staying, but being in business and being in charge of your, your own future and the buck stops with you. And if you can't bring in the money to support that endeavor and contribute to your family and your own success, then it's all a futile exercise.
Fi
I love it. We certainly get a lot of practice asking for money and pitching the value that we wanna offer with a dollar sign. That's something that small business owners have to be practicing constantly is how do I actually put a dollar sign next to,
oh yeah. This value that I wanna create for this particular client in front of me.
Jen
I still hate it. Yeah. I still hate it with the passion.
Fi
Yeah, but you do it anyway. Yeah, you have to.
Jen
You have to. You have to.
Fi
All right. So thank you so much for sharing all of those little bits of context in there, Jen, moving from the girl in the eighties who was excited to get the cash out of the ATM when she was allowed to hit the button to being a great saver when you started [00:35:00] working.
Buying your own car. Yeah. Having these incredible, um, work opportunities where you are allowed to thrive and grow under these, what sound like other small business owners to then having 12 years under your belt as your own business, plus being a blogger back in the OG days of the internet. And now you've had this incredible opportunity. Yeah. Fall in your lap and inverted commerce, but actually the opportunity has come through all of the incredible work you've done in your career. You've accepted this role, and so what we want now is for you to report back. I want you to report back to me in six months and tell me, here's the grass greener on the other side.
Jen
Yeah, exactly. I've, I've gone through a, a, a, a whole load of stages of mixed emotions. Mm. When people would say, when I have been telling people personally that I'm making this change into clients, the natural people say, congratulations. But I couldn't accept that because I felt like I was betraying. [00:36:00] My fellow consultants and small business owners that I was ditching everyone and I was going over to the other side.
So that's been, um, an uncomfortable experience to have to process. While feeling incredibly flattered by the invitation to join this team and feeling valued, there was, there was consternation, there was confusion, a little bit of grief maybe. Mm-hmm. Cold feet, doubt, all of that. Thankfully, that is lessened over the last probably two weeks and the confidence has, has come back and the excitement now into what's to come and to be able to.
Dig my teeth into one project and actually see it through. Usually I'm working in a project and then I hand it over. Mm mm That's what is really attractive. So I'm kind of thinking of it as like, this is my big biggest project yet.
Fi
And you actually get to see it through rather than just do the start bit.
Jen
Yeah. And then, but I don't have to do my best and I don't have to. I [00:37:00] mean, I'll miss Mondays, but I'm still gonna take all of those learnings that I've gained through my work with you, and I'm still going to do that. I've just gotta work out how to transition. Because being in control of and having that, you know, there's nothing better that when your bask comes through and you have that money saved in your tax account and you just go, there you go.
That's like, not my money, but I know I have it here. Tax person, I've done my duty. And then, oh, there's some leftover. I can put that into my profit, or I can put that into my super, or I can repay that loan, whatever, whatever people choose to do. I mean, that's massive. That's just massive sense of accomplishment. So, you know, I'll be looking at all of those lessons that I, I've learned and I've improved my habits on, and see how I can transfer all of that into, into what I'm, what am I gonna be doing for the next, yes, however long. Yes, yes. Six months down the track, that will be the decision time, mutual decision as to whether, yes, this feels [00:38:00] right and as well for the, for the team to go.
Fi
I love it. This is a really good segue to wrapping up our lovely conversation. I just wanna ask you a couple of questions to leave the listeners with. What is the money lesson that your business has taught you? What is the thing that you've learned about money through being a small business owner perhaps that you wish you'd learned sooner?
Jen
Don't be afraid of it. I was the kind of person who would avoid it at all costs, wouldn't look at my sales reports, wouldn't know what to do with them. Kind of knew what was in my account, but just, I just winged it all the time because I was afraid. I don't know what I was afraid of because I didn't have the knowledge.
So therefore. I was fearful without it. And thankfully whoever was, was looking over my shoulder. I, I managed to survive it until I was like, this is ridiculous. Remember my husband was saying he would ask me questions and I about the business and I couldn't answer and I always felt a bit of a fool. So I'm like, okay, enough's enough.
And I [00:39:00] think that's probably when I came. So that was a long, that happened for a long time fee so. Um, yes. Don't be like, Jen, don't be, don't be afraid of it. And if you don't know how to do it, find out. Learn.
Fi
Yeah. There's so many different resources available for building your financial literacy, either free paid, or low cost.
There's so much out there and I think it's really important to make sure that you're taking that learning from somebody who actually understands the context of your life too. So. Taking advice from 25-year-old male tech startup people doesn't actually apply as well to women who are, you know, in their forties and fifties and just dealing with other things.
Jen
Well, that was why I, I felt akin to, to you after I, you know, stalked you and. Kind of looked to see if you were, would be a good match for me. I, I knew I could learn from you. I really loved your no, your no nonsense attitude with warmth. I'm [00:40:00] like, yes, that's the person that I need. If I'm really honest with myself, so I'll back that.
What you've just said is learn from somebody who you know is going to show up for you and is going to hold you to account and who is going to teach you well.
Fi
And Jen, you said, um, that you've really overcome over this last however many years, you've overcome this sort of barrier. You had to putting the right dollar amount on the invoice or on the salary request. What's something practical that actually helped you to be able to do that, that we might be able to leave the listeners with?
Jen
To be honest, what helped me was talking to fellow business owners. Who weren't afraid to share, like literally talk about numbers because as a marketer, cards are held very close to their chest in the world that I've lived in. Yes. And there were some people who started to share their fees or their packages. Um, so practically I started to [00:41:00] study and do my research to see who aligned with the kind of level of work that I delivered and start, started to compare. And then coming into your group, you were really transparent with numbers and.
I've got it wrong for a long time, and I probably could have made lots more money if I had come to you 10 years ago. But, but that's, that's just the way it is, you know?
Fi
I love that. Yeah. And you know, you have all of these new financial literacy skills now, but more importantly, you know how to pitch for what you want and put a dollar number next to it.
Yeah. And you've proven what I believe is correct, which is that. When women talk about money openly with other women in spaces where they can trust each other, which is exactly what we do in good money flood, everybody makes more money because when you can see that your peers and women who are just as great and flawed and awesome [00:42:00] and you know imperfect as you are charging X dollar per month for their retainer, yeah, when you can see it, you can be it.
So thank you for confirming what I know to be true, which is that. Talking about money is how we make more.
Jen
Yeah. And, and for anybody starting out, yes, you do have to have experience under your belt to know that you do need to make mistakes to know that, but you, you've gotta be able to show your value as well. So when you're pitching, you know, you've, and that this is a, a really good piece of advice that Mia actually has given, which is always give a gift of advice or knowledge. Give away something for free. To show your ability. I totally agree with that. Is, is show your generosity and you, you're clever with it, but it, it just gives people more trust and reassurance that this person is an expert or is a specialist and I know that they're gonna do good work for me.So. Whatever way you're gonna present your pitch or how you speak it or how you write it, be [00:43:00] comfortable to give away some gems and build up your social license so people know that you're the real deal and not, you know, somebody who's pretending, which there are many charlatans out there.
fi
I love it. Well, here's to all the charlatans and the women like you and me who are building ethical businesses and making choices, like taking an amazing role in an amazing organization.
Um. Thank you so much for your time today, Jan. It's been lovely talking with you on Zoom. I will miss you in Good Money Club, but I'm gonna be checking in with you in six months to ask you, Hey, you bet. Tell me how green the grass is on the other side. 'cause I really wanna know and, uh, we'll bring you, we'll bring you back and you can tell everyone for sure.
Jen
Or maybe just green on both sides. How about that?
Fi
Maybe it's just green because you water it and you can tell us about whether that's true or not. Yeah. How about that? Yes, yes. It's in my diary fee. It's been really gorgeous chatting with you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jan. [00:44:00]
Outro
Thank you so much for listening right up to the end.
I hope you enjoyed this episode of Money Secrets, where we talk about the money secrets of successful small business owners. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love it if you subscribe. To the podcast, but leave us a review or share this episode with one of your friends. I hope you learned something. I hope you got a new perspective, and I really hope you enjoyed the listening experience.
